A Better Way to Mind Map with Dimi Lazarou

[00:00:00] diane: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode. This is episode 482, and this is, I think, Dimi’s fourth or fifth episode that you’ve done. I tried to, um, collect all of the old episodes. 

[00:00:16] Dimi Lazarou: I think it’s, I think it’s number four. We did, I think it’s four. One time management, one on semiotics. The third on was the ai ai and, and I actually 

[00:00:24] diane: have them on the page.

[00:00:26] So, um, I’ll share the link and it’ll be at the top when [00:00:30] we, um, are finished, uh, the link to the page. But all those old episodes are there and we have definitely talked about time, um, and other things. But today we are talking about something that I love that you. Couldn’t find something and you made something.

[00:00:48] So I love when we do this ’cause I think it makes our industry better. And I’m sure, and one of the things that I, um, started off, uh, kicked off this in the newsletter and in [00:01:00] the post was saying that you are a brand designer and a strategist and, um, you have a great, uh, you’re a big thinker and I love talking to you.

[00:01:12] I’m glad you’re my friend. Um, but you also have the ability to make a lot of things. But you, you would, you were searching for a tool and none of the tools were there. And I think we all can relate, um, that [00:01:30] we have tried to ideate and we get frustrated or, um, because I only know certain things, so. Tell us about, uh, tell, this is Dimi.

[00:01:43] He’s been on many times. He’s in Greece. When I met him, he lived in London or in England. Yes. Right. Yep. And so, but we’ve been friends for years now. Yeah. And five, so yeah, about five years. And, um, so [00:02:00] Dimi, you tell ’em a little bit about what you do and then jump into why, uh, what you were trying to do and you couldn’t find a tool that was really meeting your needs for ideation and brainstorming.

[00:02:15] Dimi Lazarou: Okay. So, right. So, um, Dimi, I’m the co-founder of Symbol on Branding, which is, uh, brand Identity design studio, I used to say, based in the uk. Now it’s sort [00:02:30] of pan-European. No. Uh, but we, it’s based 

[00:02:33] diane: in the world. 

[00:02:34] Dimi Lazarou: Uh, well, it’s gonna be, uh, so yeah, I have been doing brand identity design for several years. Uh, we started symbol on branding started in 2019.

[00:02:49] In 2021, I partnered up with a good friend of mine based in Manchester with similar background as me, um, [00:03:00] from the, the same extended network that I met Diane as well on Chris doe’s pedigree of brand identity design ideas. And, um, yeah, my, my main challenge has been I don’t have a traditional. Uh, design background as most people have, have, I had some studies in mathematics before that, and as such, both the both, [00:03:30] um, the college experience and the work experience in design has been very, very frustrating for me.

[00:03:37] And the, the lack of scientific reasoning behind it has been very confusing and very challenging. So, and that was 

[00:03:47] diane: something that was missing. You have encouraged me about just teaching design, like there should, there. Probably is some things that are subjective, but there’s lots of things that aren’t subjective, [00:04:00] right.

[00:04:00] Dimi Lazarou: Ex. Exactly. And even the things that are subject subjective, if there are patterns that you know, are formed in, in, in this shape, like if there are general trends, we should at least recognize the subjectivity of it. We have a whole episode about why this was upsetting, uh, about me with, uh, creative Ignite, uh, I think was the, the one before the last.

[00:04:26] Yes. Uh, so in general, like [00:04:30] I’m, I’m. I’m always eager to, to sort of provide a, um, um, a foundation in, uh, in what I do. And as such, the, there has been this, uh, sincere effort than I have been putting towards working with semiotics, uh, more just in case. 

[00:04:52] diane: So my mom would not know what semiotics were. So I always like to ne even she’s still here, you know?

[00:04:59] Dimi Lazarou: Yeah, [00:05:00] so semiotics is the study of symbols and enzymes. Uh, it is also like, uh, people might be using a different word, which is called semiology. Um, they’re slightly different, but the, their intention is the same. Semiology is usually used by people in the European school of this science, and semiotics, uh, is used by people on the American side of this, uh, school.

[00:05:29] So I’ve, [00:05:30] I’ve more grown to the American branch. And the main thing is why do things mean what they mean? Why is the word dog associated with a concept dog? Why is red the color of passion? Why is, you know, a familiar, um, jingle, uh, in the radio triggering certain responses, uh, from us? So. [00:06:00] A hundred years ago, they used to live this great American mathematician guy called Charles Under Purse, and he had some brilliant ideas about this science, and he started writing things.

[00:06:13] But lo and behold, they’re completely legible to most designers because they don’t have the mathematical knowledge in, in order to understand them. So a big chunk of my work is translating, you know, these ideas because I, I have [00:06:30] the, the language required translating these ideas into things that are immediately accessible and usable by people.

[00:06:38] Did I, did I present myself well? 

[00:06:40] diane: I think so. And also, and you said you have a math background. I think that this is one of the things that makes, uh, and you’re very. You like to push the envelope? I, one thing I love about Dimi is he always will tell me like it is, he’s not. Um, so we have really good conversations.

[00:06:58] That could be, [00:07:00] some people might, if they were listening to us, have a conversation. Some people might be like, whoa, you were really heated or you were having a, but it’s, I love having conversations like that. We don’t always have to agree. Right. We, yes, but we’re having thoughtful conversations. I’m, 

[00:07:15] Dimi Lazarou: I’m one of these people who think, you know, debate is, is the, the, uh, foundry of good ideas.

[00:07:22] So I’m, uh, whenever I’m challenging, I’m hoping to be convinced. That’s the, that’s my, my general [00:07:30] attitude in, in conversations. So, um, 

[00:07:32] diane: okay. So paint us this picture. So back in maybe 2019, you were doing branding, um Mm-Hmm. And. Or 2017 or whatever you’re, you’re coming up with, you’re using semiotics, you’re using math, you’re doing research, but there was something missing.

[00:07:50] What was missing when you were trying to ideate? 

[00:07:54] Dimi Lazarou: Okay, so the, the, the, the main thing is, so the, I think you’re referring to [00:08:00] the tool I made. The big thing is it didn’t, didn’t really start from, uh, from. An intent to ideate is just developed in, in this Mm-Hmm. The main thing is I wanted to have a map of some sorts that, uh, ties concepts together, um, which is really accessible.

[00:08:25] So all of these ideas, um, like red being [00:08:30] the color of passion, for example, okay, this is, this is something that, you know, there’s a general consensus, uh, among, uh, Western people, uh, or, uh, Indo-European people. There you go. See the cat. 

[00:08:44] diane: There was your cat. Oh my goodness. He’s a superhero. 

[00:08:47] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. So, uh, this is the first time recording with the cat in the house, so I really hope, uh, it doesn’t bother anyone.

[00:08:53] diane: It’ll be fine. That was amazing. 

[00:08:55] Dimi Lazarou: Um, anology and, and all such. So, uh, the main, [00:09:00] the main challenge that I used to have is. Is there a record of these associations? Like, you know, yellow is excitement and red is anger, and blue is calmness. And, and the more, the more I, I started looking at these things and there are some dictionaries, um, uh, that are used especially in, in, uh, in art history.[00:09:30] 

[00:09:30] Um, the dictionaries are really hard to pass because, you know, you have to be changing pages every now and then. Like the, the written form is not the best way to, to handle this. So I tried, I tried making a visual representation of this in, uh, pen and paper. There he is again in the background. 

[00:09:52] diane: Yeah, he is so beautiful.

[00:09:54] Dimi Lazarou: He’s amazing. Um, so what happened was. [00:10:00] I really quickly found out that this was becoming too complex to be handled by paper. The concepts are too many, the lines are too many, even with the thinnest of pencils, like, you can’t do this. So I tried making it, uh, I tried making it on the computer and I had no idea how to do this.

[00:10:26] Uh, visualizing, um, complex [00:10:30] things is still still a challenge for, uh, computers in the way we work it. 

[00:10:35] diane: Let me ask you a question real quick, though. Of course. Why is it important to have to understand the connections between things instead? Uh, and because, uh, for somebody who maybe isn’t in, in doing branding or Mm-Hmm, well, why would that even be important?

[00:10:53] Why do you need. To make these connections? Like why is it important as a branding designer? [00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] Dimi Lazarou: Well, the, the thing is, okay, so these connections are already, uh, okay. Most of these connections already exist in our mind, whether we want it or not. So, and, uh, you know, some are developed during our lifetime and, uh, are, you know, they, they, they’re distilled to us via our culture, for example, uh, black being the color, I’m using too many colors, but black being the [00:11:30] color of mourning, for example, like, uh mm-Hmm.

[00:11:32] There is somber sad thing. And okay, this is, this is a cultural thing that we’ve, um, that we’ve started imbibing, but there are also many things, uh, that are even, uh, even, uh, inscribed to us through our genes. So, for example, um. You know, cats recognize cucumbers as snakes and the [00:12:00] dangerous, and they, you know, uh, they have an adverse reaction to cucumbers for some reason.

[00:12:05] Or, um, there is this association with yellow and black stripes being dangerous. So we have bees, tigers, or all of these are dangerous to us. So we have associated this yellow and black strip stripy thing as, you know, something to be alert about. And this is, this is not a human invention. Like it’s, it’s a very primal thing.

[00:12:28] So these [00:12:30] connections exist in our mind, whether we want it or not. Mm-Hmm. Understanding them and how the human mind feels about these things can make us be more deliberate in the way that we practice design. So a sign maker deciding to make his. Sign, you know, um, yellow and black, you know, a caution wet floor or something, um, is being deliberate in using [00:13:00] a symbol, um, that is associated with a, with a certain thought.

[00:13:06] So first of all, mapping it and understanding, like even mapping it just once is going to be amazing for, uh, for getting all these sort of results that, that we, we eventually might understand. Mapping is usually the first, uh, the first thing. And learning how to use them and starting noticing patterns is [00:13:30] even, even more important if we want to be the, the most effective designers possible in.

[00:13:39] You know, getting the exact amount of energy we need to make, uh, an impression in someone’s mind. Am I making sense or rambling? 

[00:13:47] diane: Yes. No, I get it. So then for, uh, branding, it’s important that you’re not designing in a bubble. You have to understand, um, how other people and how maybe our [00:14:00] bodies work in general of how we react to certain symbols or colors, uh, things like that.

[00:14:06] You can use those things to your advantage. 

[00:14:09] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. Or sometimes, sometimes if you don’t, then you need to find a different way. To give you an example, like, um, so in, uh, I’m going to be using colors again, I dunno why I’m doing this, but, uh, especially in, in packaging design, uh, physical brands on retail, sometimes they, they need, they need to [00:14:30] stand out, they need to be unique.

[00:14:31] So if you have, um, um, um, uh, a soft drink, for example, you can be the red brand, you can be the green brand, you can be the blue brand. Eventually, like you’re going to be using a color which is not really associated with soft drinks. Like, eventually someone is going to have to find the pink, the pink soft drink, right?

[00:14:51] Mm-hmm. So it makes sense to capitalize on the other aspects of the soft drink in order to [00:15:00] create something unique. So even avoiding certain associations with other brands is going to be helpful. So it’s the, uh, the, the point, the point of making a map of these is having, you know, having the exact amount of energy we need.

[00:15:17] Not no more, uh, no less. So we don’t over over design. On the other hand, we don’t, you, we don’t risk losing the association in people’s minds. 

[00:15:28] diane: And the one good thing about [00:15:30] this, so you’ve made this tool that mm-Hmm. Um, allows connections to be made and confirmed, I think. Yes. Uh, that’s the other thing. So the beautiful thing is that if you’re like me and I’m a solopreneur, if I was doing, um.

[00:15:46] Uh, say I was doing packaging. It doesn’t have to just be branding, and I wanted to have something that goes with this. And I think, well, being in the south, I would put, um, cucumbers and [00:16:00] watermelon together. You know, like that’s a typical thing that we put to together, but maybe Timmy’s face looks like it’s weird.

[00:16:09] Sure. But, um, that is a, a typical thing. So this may be that you wouldn’t know that, but I am thinking about it, the bubble, but it’s needs to be for the whole United States or for the whole world. It’s, uh, you know, open this, whatever, I’m making this juice drink or [00:16:30] something. Mm-hmm. And, um, but if I don’t, if I just am doing mind mapping in my own bubble, I may make this connection.

[00:16:38] But you would be like, what? Like that. Yes. A weird why would you ever, I think about toothpaste a little bit. Um, there’s a toothpaste and I hate the, I mean, I love this toothpaste. Okay. But I think this is your uni 

[00:16:53] Dimi Lazarou: office, right? 

[00:16:53] diane: This is, this is, so I bring this because I think this looks like his mile, [00:17:00] right?

[00:17:00] Dimi Lazarou: Okay. 

[00:17:01] diane: Okay. Not, it’s not, 

[00:17:03] Dimi Lazarou: yeah. Not, not high smile. Yes. 

[00:17:05] diane: Yeah, yeah. High smile I think is what it needs more Ning or something. But it tastes really good. And what I love is that, um, it’s, this is a watermelon flavor. Normally we connect like a watermelon flavor with like candy, or we wouldn’t do it with toothpaste.

[00:17:20] Most toothpaste is mint, right? 

[00:17:23] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. Or spear. Mint or green. Green things. Maybe 

[00:17:26] diane: cinnamon. Yeah. Most heavy 

[00:17:27] Dimi Lazarou: things. Yes. 

[00:17:28] diane: So, but they have like [00:17:30] peach tea. And granted, I think they need a little help with their high smile instead of smile. Do you know, do you know how 

[00:17:36] Dimi Lazarou: we call these in Europe? 

[00:17:38] diane: No. 

[00:17:39] Dimi Lazarou: Kids toothpastes.

[00:17:41] diane: Oh, but that’s adult toothpaste. That’s not, yeah, 

[00:17:44] Dimi Lazarou: I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s, it’s watermelon. It’s kids like it doesn’t matter how serious. Okay. So yes, you’re right. 

[00:17:49] diane: But so then the whole thing with this, his smile is that they’re trying to say toothpaste doesn’t have to taste. Like, I don’t really like mint.

[00:17:56] I like spearmint. Okay. But there’s not a lot of spearmint. It’s usually [00:18:00] peppermint in your thing. So I always feel like, okay, well this is a great, like breakout of what is normal. So I never had kids toothpaste when I was a kid. There was not kids toothpaste. Um, it was all the same. There was, so I was like, I’ll try this peach.

[00:18:17] And I liked the peach, but I can’t find the peach anymore. So I get the watermelon. Um, and it’s yummy. Uh, there are certain things that we connect. So if I was doing this, if I worked for that company, [00:18:30] I might say, okay, this is how I could use this tool that Dimi’s made. Is that Mm-Hmm. Most people, because most people are connecting toothpaste with mint.

[00:18:38] So how can we stand out? We’re gonna do watermelon and peach and cherry or something. Right? Because we need to stand out in the market. Why does toothpaste, let’s question some of these, you know, accepted rules, so, correct. 

[00:18:52] Dimi Lazarou: A hundred percent. Yes. Uh, so the, the, the map itself, you know, can lead you towards or lead you [00:19:00] away from things.

[00:19:01] So, um, I think, I think it, it will, it would be prudent to just show the map. Show map show us. 

[00:19:08] diane: Yes. Let’s show 

[00:19:09] Dimi Lazarou: people. Yes. Okay. So me to, 

[00:19:11] diane: are you gonna share it or do you want me 

[00:19:13] Dimi Lazarou: to share? I, I’m going share 

[00:19:14] diane: my screen. Yes. Okay. So you decided to make this because you tried it on paper, it was too big, you tried it in the computer and you were like, yeah, 

[00:19:23] Dimi Lazarou: like, you know, uh, even, even on paper, having 50 concepts is a challenge and now there’s [00:19:30] 5,000 of them.

[00:19:33] So it is definitely not fitting on paper. So I’ll, I’ll just show you the first version. Can you, can you see my screen? 

[00:19:39] diane: Yes. Not yet, but we, it. Okay, now we can, 

[00:19:42] Dimi Lazarou: yeah, now you can. So I’m going to show you the first version of it, which, uh, is sort of deprecated and, um, uh, eventually it will settle down. And this was an old attempt on, on how this works.

[00:19:58] And as you can see, [00:20:00] like it’s a, a huge mess. And when I zoom out, you will probably understand why this is so. Hard to do on paper, and it’s still, you know, not everything. So every.you see here is, uh, concepts and every line connecting two, um, two nodes. Like two dots is, is, you know, the, the [00:20:30] idea that these things are connected and they, they, they feel, and they work like, uh.

[00:20:36] Rubber, um, bands, uh, they have physics. They have this ability to sort of pull and push, uh, different things, uh, towards them. So I was So are 

[00:20:50] diane: are ones that are closer together, more related in some way? Yes, 

[00:20:53] Dimi Lazarou: exactly. So the, the cool thing about this is it sort of gave this thing shape [00:21:00] instead of being randomly distributed there.

[00:21:02] The, there are these sort of bright centers in, in several places, which shows us like, this is especially cool. Like, okay, what, what is this? Oh, come on. Uh, this is a, a, no. So fertility, so fertility is important, or water is even more important. So you can see like the most fundamental ideas being sort of closer, [00:21:30] uh, and, and developing a sort of gravity around them.

[00:21:34] Uh, but still it was very cumbersome and, uh, I, no, you can, you can see in certain places like the, the most, uh, central nodes. So, and this is, uh, when this version of the, of the process was, was done, this was just 10% of my research on the, the actual connections. And still it’s [00:22:00] huge. Uh, so it was going to, and, and the thing about area is it doesn’t grow linearly like this would mean the final thing would be 100 times bigger than the rest of it, if it’s going to grow 10 times in each direction.

[00:22:16] So it’s going to be huge. It’s going to be extremely complicated. Uh, but the physics of the thing, um, just gave us a sort of, uh, idea on, on how this might work. And first of all, it was [00:22:30] terrible. I, I don’t know how to code. Um, so you can see, like when I try to zoom in, it feels like Lady Gaga on meth. Like it’s not stable at all.

[00:22:41] And, um, because most of it I had to make, you know, from Frankenstein code, like essentially just taking code snippets from here and there and just pasting them together, you know, [00:23:00] with rudimentary JavaScript experience and just hoping that it’ll feel okay. And it sort of gave me some, I. You know, semblance of this thing working and it was good enough so I could still go and, and and, you know, incorporate more and more ideas and concepts in this.

[00:23:22] And just hoping for the best Mountains are also, and fire and Earth are really, uh, important symbols as you can see. [00:23:30] So, so 

[00:23:30] diane: were you, at this point, were you just putting things in on your own? Things that you were seeing? Yes. How, how did you determine? So really at this point, it was just Dimi’s thoughts of what was connecting or were using some sort of science backing up.

[00:23:46] Dimi Lazarou: Okay. So halfway, so like, I understand that this is not science in the, in the. Most honest form, like [00:24:00] this is just a transposition of my notes Mm-Hmm. That I have done on the back of other people’s research. Mm-Hmm. So this is incorporating, um, uh, semiotic dictionaries, uh, art history books. Um, there’s this, uh, this, this great book, uh, by Adrian er that, um, he’s ama he used to be a 

[00:24:29] diane: Mm-Hmm.[00:24:30] 

[00:24:30] Dimi Lazarou: Anyway, um, Adrian ER is a huge inspiration for this. Some very thankful that he existed in our world. Um, so I’m mostly incorporating. Things that I find in, in books that I’ve been reading and just trying to make a map. Like I don’t claim this to be scientific, I don’t claim to the, for this to be accurate, is just my notes on, you know, [00:25:00] on essentially lectures, uh, from other people on this.

[00:25:04] So, um, but it’s not just 

[00:25:06] diane: what you, you are writing. Oh, well, my mom put watermelon and cucumber together. No, I’m, I’m, I’m 

[00:25:11] Dimi Lazarou: trying to use, you know, quantified, you’re using right sources, but I, uh, the, the thing that will make it more scientific if this is eventually, uh, falsifiable or testable. So, um, the, the, the point of this is when a hundred percent [00:25:30] of the information is incorporated, then if you ask 10,000 people.

[00:25:36] Most of them will agree. Like that’s the, that’s the, the, the other way to go about it. So that was one approach and that is the one I have been using. So it clearly was broken. It sort of didn’t help me understand much. And while there is some functionality where if you click on one node, you can sort of [00:26:00] just see the concepts that it’s related to.

[00:26:04] The positioning of the map itself is terrible. So it just doesn’t help with anything. Okay. So like everything is in its own place and there’s this, uh, huge line that goes somewhere that I will probably not be able to locate. Okay. It’s spring. Okay. Makes sense. For spring. Uh, spring lamp is connected to spring and yeah, it’s terrible.

[00:26:29] And if I click [00:26:30] on spring, good. Good luck with that. Uh. So how did, how 

[00:26:34] diane: long did it live at this terrible stage? Because a year and 

[00:26:39] Dimi Lazarou: a half I would say. Okay. A year 

[00:26:40] diane: and a half. And then what, at this point you were like, it could be better. 

[00:26:44] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. And the main, the main, uh, inspiration about this was this needs to be 3D because mapping it in, in linear way just, [00:27:00] um, um, makes a certain kind of shape, you know, um, challenging.

[00:27:06] While when you are in 3D then more things can be closer to your main thing without being too far spread apart. So this is, uh. This is the version of the thing that is currently living in the website. And I’ve made it, uh, you know, purposefully, uh, you know, very, uh, metrics, [00:27:30] like I’m using all the shaders. I, I think, you know, it’s, uh, it’s important to, to impress people.

[00:27:35] So, uh, I can, I can use my, uh, my mouse to sort of help you see how it feels. It still has a kind of a donut shape, but it has thickness. And the thickness is, uh, I. I, I assume it’s, it’s actually important, but We’ll, we’ll see how this goes. So you can see, like, it [00:28:00] feels more like a molecule right now. Mm-Hmm.

[00:28:02] And molecules, were always the inspir. Hello, pale right here. Uh, so, uh, molecules are really the, uh, the inspiration of the general form that I, I wanted for this. And you, as you will see, there are no labels here yet because you have to zoom in really close. Um, okay. Um, I pressed something, but I’ll [00:28:30] go for the full thing again.

[00:28:31] diane: But this wasn’t there before the search, the ability to, for other people to, no. 

[00:28:36] Dimi Lazarou: Uh, so yeah, that’s, that’s the one cool thing is, but, uh, I’ll, I’ll need to show you. Uh, so, oh, come on.

[00:28:48] So this is everything starting from C and it grows. Uh, so the thing is, it’s going to show labels when fewer than [00:29:00] 50 things are on the screen at a single time. So like, if, if you’re just watching a big shapes, it doesn’t, doesn’t need to produce a million, uh, million pieces of text. 

[00:29:11] diane: Uh, but the nodes, the, the things are still closer to things that they’re more related to.

[00:29:16] Yes. So the 

[00:29:16] Dimi Lazarou: physics, the physics still work. Um, and this is really important. And now they’re going to be, uh, they’re going to be, uh, also like the strength of the rubber band is going to be [00:29:30] determined, uh, by the amount of connections that, uh, happen. So I will, I I, I want to show you like a more, I. Um, a more valid, uh, way of using this.

[00:29:44] And this is, for example, uh, uh, something that people would search for fire. I’ve tap it twice, I’ll refresh, so it’s [00:30:00] still, still very buggy. Um, this is, this is rendered by my graphics card, so, and I’m streaming video as well, so, right. It’s go, it’s going to be slow. Um, but, uh, but if I, if 

[00:30:14] diane: I was doing a logo or a, a.

[00:30:17] For a restaurant and it was fire or UE go, or 

[00:30:21] Dimi Lazarou: you, so this is fire. Alright. Okay. So this is, this is much more malleable. Uh, it’s very smooth. Uh, it’s actually, I’m, [00:30:30] I’m quite happy with the sophistication it has for this level. I just want the, the impressive thing to be there, which is the, the huge galaxy of things.

[00:30:38] Mm-Hmm. So there’s a ton of things happening here. So you, you can see, so first of all you can see several connections away from it. So it has two levels. So fire is connected firecracker and firecracker is connected to golden dragon or China, or rain, or scaring off evil spirits. [00:31:00] So that is, that is an amazing thing that’s, uh, happening.

[00:31:04] So, uh, with this situation you can sort of, um, you can have a look and zoom in and out and see what’s happening. And there’s some. Other, um, concepts that are, uh, still related. So the one thing that is problematic in this version is I need to eventually implement, um, a way for certain [00:31:30] versions of a single word.

[00:31:32] So we have fire with a capital F and five with a, um, minuscule F and they’re not the same thing in this. Uh, so I need to, like, one of the next steps is, you know, making it, um, making it more, uh, smart about how words are written. I guess this is also going to happen with American and British spellings.

[00:31:56] Spellings. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, it’s going to be, uh, it’s going [00:32:00] to need a linguist at some point in order to, to make all these rules, um, uh, happen, which is, uh, you know, uh, really important. So. The cool thing about this version, uh, other than, you know, the, the flashy, uh, the flashy things is you can click on, on a node and it’ll take you to the associations with the node.

[00:32:26] So if I click on, uh, clicked on purification, it takes me to [00:32:30] purification, click on water, uh, gets me there, click on baptism, you know, it takes me to, 

[00:32:37] diane: now some of those nos are bigger than others. Does that mean something? They’re, 

[00:32:41] Dimi Lazarou: they’re just closer. There’s just, okay. 

[00:32:43] diane: Okay. 

[00:32:44] Dimi Lazarou: They’re the same, they’re just closer to the camera of, of the thing.

[00:32:48] Uh, there might be some reason, uh, to make some of these bigger than the others. There might be some reason to, to give these different colors. [00:33:00] I really dunno. It’s the very early start of the project. The cool thing about this version is that the visualization and the, uh, background, uh, um, information, the database behind them are completely separate, so they live in different way.

[00:33:18] Why is that 

[00:33:18] diane: important? 

[00:33:19] Dimi Lazarou: It’s important because I can make all the changes that I want to the. To the database without affecting how cool it looks. Or I can make aesthetic [00:33:30] changes and I don’t have to affect, um, I don’t have to worry about, you know, what happens, uh, what happens behind the scenes. And I can also implement logic in different ways.

[00:33:41] So eventually you are going to, to have a, a user interface in this that is also enabling people to sort of filter. Uh, because this is essentially filtering, like when you click on water, it just filters everything. Uh, so this is, this is actually for [00:34:00] people understand data science. Like this is really cool.

[00:34:04] Um, just, all right, 

[00:34:06] diane: so, so Jared says he, he was teaching on this last week helping students learn how to ideate, and we did this on the whiteboard. Mm-Hmm. So what is, um. So I, I, and I do think that there’s something to be, uh, done about what you as an individual know about a certain thing. Um, but I think that we all have limited experience.

[00:34:28] So it’s really important [00:34:30] to understand, again, that maybe, I think everybody connects cucumbers and watermelons, but everybody doesn’t. So it’s also really important to put in, uh, be able to see a bigger picture. And this is giving us a larger picture instead of a insulated or a bubble. 

[00:34:52] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. And there’s more like, um, so first of all, the, let’s talk about the aspirations for this [00:35:00] project.

[00:35:00] So for me, I, I would like this to, to be like. Open and free for a, first of all, it needs to be open and free. It lives on my website right now. I would like it to be so, so, you know, people have, can have a poke around. Uh, but I still, I don’t even advertise that this is there, like, uh Right. You know, it’s just someone has to notice my, uh, my bar.

[00:35:28] Uh, [00:35:30] so the, the big thing is I want, uh, this to be open and free. I, I would like people to contribute to this in the same manner that people contribute to Wikipedia. Mm-Hmm. So people, um, because I understand my sources are limited, so the, the big shift in this project is going to happen when, when new people at the Roman associations [00:36:00] and they say, you know, yin is connected to.

[00:36:05] Frogs, uh, or dying love or Samoan folk club or whatever cu or anyway, so there might be connections that are missing from the sources I have been using, which definitely are five years old. And this is, this is already old in cultural terms and many of these are from the 17 and 18 hundreds, so even worse.

[00:36:29] [00:36:30] Uh, so, um, the first thing is in the same way that Wikipedia has sort of mapped a. The human knowledge from different cultures in different spaces and different geographies and different perspectives. I would like this to be the same. So, um, the, the, the main mechanism I’m thinking about this is people, like, there’s, there’s, uh, there’s going to be a user interface in here.

[00:36:59] [00:37:00] So people can type one word and can type a second word. And it’s just going to put these and associated with this. The technology exists. Uh, uh, I have removed it from the interface right now because I don’t want this to be overwhelmed by spam, essentially. Right. And spam is probably the, the next thing I’m going to refer to what I’m, I would like to see happening once I’m, I’m, you [00:37:30] know, comfortable with the amount of people, um, working on this is.

[00:37:37] Uh, I, I think I would like to, to get the help of experts and, you know, a linguist is, is a good idea of, uh, the kind of expert that we need. So they might be provide, they, they might be, they might provide, um, you know, context in whether, you know, flame and fire should be [00:38:00] different things should be the same thing.

[00:38:02] Like, what’s the situation there? Or p or. Whatever. Uh, so a linguist might be more valuable in, in understanding these connections. So that’s one. Um, a data scientist would be, you know, uh, amazing to have. And a coder probably, because this is still, uh, this is still working on my very limited, uh, knowledge of things.

[00:38:28] Thankfully, AI [00:38:30] has helped us build tools like this. Most of this is, is used, um, is using a, not, not the data behind it. The data is from, uh, book sources, but making the visualization is, is very much driven by, um, by Claude, which is Anthropics version of T. And, uh, yeah, I wouldn’t be able to make it without it, but I’m pretty [00:39:00] sure an actual code, uh.

[00:39:02] Can, you know, can make it 10 times better and more stable and more clean and um, whatever have you. So, but it’s still, it’s still in a very usable form so that people, uh, people can be using this, uh, to, to come up with ideas. And I really love the, the, the, the, the random jump, uh, where, where people [00:39:30] just do, uh, concept associations here and there, and they, they see what’s, what’s there and what exists and whatnot.

[00:39:39] So, uh, it’s still, it’s, it’s, it’s still, it’s very much in a, in a usable form. So I’m very, very proud of that. Um, so lemme ask 

[00:39:50] diane: you, what is your biggest concern for this tool? 

[00:39:54] Dimi Lazarou: Okay. Is it 

[00:39:55] diane: spam? 

[00:39:56] Dimi Lazarou: So spam is a very big thing. Yes. Uh, [00:40:00] I, I’ve seen it. It’s not just, so there’s, there’s two, two challenges. Uh, I think the one is spam, like literal bots doing ungodly work with, um, you know, making, putting 

[00:40:14] diane: two different words in and they’re not really connected.

[00:40:17] Dimi Lazarou: And yes, or, you know, even, even, even putting, you know, advertising type of, uh, associations, uh, which is going to be a problem. Um, and just the brute force of the [00:40:30] thing, like, you know, putting 1000 instances of happiness and the McDonald’s brand like this might be a way to abuse the system if you have robots instead of people putting the data in there.

[00:40:46] Uh, but this is quite easily resolved with. Human moderators. Mm-Hmm. Having a sense of how did all this data appear here? So my main idea [00:41:00] is that everyone is going to be able to make a contribution, and then this contribution is just goes to a, a separate, uh, preliminary place, and the human moderator accepts or deletes this, and then it goes into the whole of information.

[00:41:18] So you don’t need an account to add things, but you’ll need an account of a moderator to put, uh, to put things like to, to absorb the information in there. [00:41:30] So when you, oh, 

[00:41:31] diane: go ahead. 

[00:41:31] Dimi Lazarou: Sorry. I was going to say the second challenge is. Going to be harder. And this is going to be the moderators fighting amongst themselves for which, for which associations are valid or not.

[00:41:45] This will need human management. Like this will need, um, you know, a steady hand in the same way that, you know, there are moderator was, was in Wikipedia, uh, all the time. Um, [00:42:00] thankfully like, uh, I really like Wikipedia’s, uh, solution for this, which is there is a log of all, all the changes and there’s a log of the reasons people take and remove things.

[00:42:15] So. You know, human abuse is going to be a problem in, in all tools like this, but I, I hope that this is, especially at the beginning, this is, you know, irrelevant enough that, you know, [00:42:30] um, that, uh, bad faith people are not going to be, not going to be abusing it as much, but eventually as it grows, it needs the stability and support of people.

[00:42:43] There might be, uh, AI solutions to this. I really don’t know. I, I think, I think AI is still very limited on deciding these things, like it’s, it’s still based on sources and the whole idea. Of [00:43:00] this thing is to remove it from the book sources eventually and put it to the actual lived experience of people.

[00:43:08] Hmm. So we’ll see how that goes. But that’s the, these are the two concerns I might have for how this, this is going go. 

[00:43:16] diane: So you talked about how you want to have people working on this. Are they working on as contributors, like adding connections or are they working on it as those moderators or, I called ’em curators, but moderators.[00:43:30] 

[00:43:30] Dimi Lazarou: So, uh, so eventually, right now nobody’s working on this but me, uh, I just casually show the, the progress of it to my business partner, and that’s about it. I have a friend who’s, um, uh, a DevOps person who’s just helping me with, you know, some infrastructural, uh, things in there, but mainly driven by me. Uh, but it doesn’t have to be like the, the whole point of [00:44:00] this is just to, to get, to get people to know about this and yeah.

[00:44:06] Get, get in touch in order to, uh, to contribute to this in, uh, in any capacity really. Like, I, I, as I said, like, uh, more than moderators and people adding, uh, context, I would love, uh, people’s insight on whether this word or that word might be used or, uh, you know, it’s still, I’m, I’m building the power [00:44:30] agents kind of team that’s going to, that’s going to, to take this forward into more public, uh, state.

[00:44:37] diane: And we talked about, uh, you and I last week talked about different languages, and this is the, the beauty. If you had a linguist in there, somebody who can be putting in different, um, terms, uh, that it was, ’cause right now it’s all in English, correct? 

[00:44:51] Dimi Lazarou: Yes. And there is the, the, this is also going to be a, a big.

[00:44:56] Well, it is a big problem to be solved, but I do [00:45:00] think that this visual representation works better than, uh, than dictionaries in, in that sense. So, for example, in, in Greek, there is no difference for the word between home and house, but there there’s a very substantial, like it is just house. Um, and, uh, but there’s a big difference in, in English on, on how this works.

[00:45:28] So [00:45:30] even the idea that. You know, you could eventually see the, the Greek word for house connected to both home and house in English might be interesting to linguists and people who deal with translation and people who deal with all these sorts of things, like even language learning could be, uh, could be important in, in this situation.

[00:45:56] But this is, this is more about, um, this is more about [00:46:00] associations rather than actual words. So. Uh, you know, setting sun being associated with death. It’s not linguistically, it’s just mentally Mm-Hmm. Um, so yeah, the, the, the language like translating this is also going to need volunteers of course. And I think it’s going to bring some new insights and perhaps, you know, concepts that really don’t translate in English at all might be included there.

[00:46:29] And we’ll have to [00:46:30] find a way to, uh, to see and incorporate this. 

[00:46:34] diane: Alright, so how would a designer use this? And you can tell how you’ve used, you have used this when you’re working with a client or on a project. 

[00:46:44] Dimi Lazarou: Okay, so, so first of all, I’ve seen, there it is again. Uh, I just wanted to zoom out. So first of all, like I’ve seen, I’ve seen how people, uh, how people use the, [00:47:00] um, mind mapping techniques in order to come up with concepts and ideas.

[00:47:05] And I don’t like it. Like I don’t, I don’t love it. I find it’s very limiting. I find that it’s, uh, it’s not getting you to the places you need. Uh, so, um, you know what, what is 

[00:47:20] diane: lacking. So I, ’cause I, I agree with you, but what, what is, I don’t like when people say I like it or I don’t like it, but I like that you say it’s [00:47:30] limiting.

[00:47:30] In what way has that been limiting for you as you’ve been just trying to use a general, 

[00:47:36] Dimi Lazarou: so. I’ll show you something. So, so there might be something arriving from the brief, right? Which is perhaps the color gold is, is not to be negotiated, right? Like the, the, the brand had to have already gold. Mm-Hmm. And we, we have it.

[00:47:53] So there might be associations, uh, here that people are missing. [00:48:00] Like, okay, would, you know, greed is usually associated with gold, but is it always top of mind for the designer or is because greed is a negative, uh, is a negative idea? Mm-Hmm. So how do you make sure that you are protected from, um, building a brand, which might be.

[00:48:23] Involuntarily be associated with greed if you don’t make it so, so for example, me [00:48:30] seeing greed here, first of all makes me remember it, and the other is it makes me design something and make a choice that I will have to associate with giving or altruism or anything that counteracts greed if I care about that or improves greed if I do.

[00:48:47] Right. Uh, so this is, this is like really important. There’s, there’s absolutely no way to go about it. And we’re very prone to. [00:49:00] Using, um, you know, to, to neglecting, uh, you know, the many parts. And I don’t really think that lion would show up, uh, quickly in these, but there are many actual, in, in heraldry, there’s tons of golden lions, right?

[00:49:17] Uh, and golden are associated with, uh, Christ as well. Like there’s many associations that we are just missing. Uh, so malleability like gold [00:49:30] bends in, in a way. You know, there’s the, uh, bending the golden coin with a tooth, uh, type of thing. Like sometimes we don’t think about that when, when we’re doing, uh, what we’re doing.

[00:49:41] So, yeah, like, um, uh, and, and especially when this becomes like a fully fledged tool, you like a person, a designer can rest assured that a. The human experience is going to be [00:50:00] mapped into this and it’s safe, uh, that most of the bases are covered. Instead of, you know, just hoping that everything comes to mind or just have to browse, um, you know, uh, which is in, in words in lit, uh, literary form.

[00:50:17] diane: So you said, um, uh, people who were maybe learning languages, I’m asking about other industries that might, could use this. So people who I think the language is really, uh, interesting one. [00:50:30] Um, what other industries do you think that could use, could make use of this tool? 

[00:50:37] Dimi Lazarou: So, first of all, first of all, like the, the tool can be useful to our clients themselves.

[00:50:44] Mm-Hmm. Which is also important. So for many clients, like most, most. Designers don’t always have the full capacity to, to cover the clients in every [00:51:00] need they have. So, um, this can be used in marketing, for example, like all these associations, you know, somebody might make an advertisement or all kinds of creative work, all kinds of cultural work, uh, can have, um, can have, you know, sign significant advantages if they, they use a tool like this so that you can tell better stories, you can be more symbolic.

[00:51:25] Mm, you can, uh, you can just make sure that your, you know, your social [00:51:30] media or your, uh, writing or your, uh, video, um, might be relevant for this. So, language learners as well. I do think there’s something here that, uh, it’s, it’s going to rotate the whole, the whole AI angle on its back. AI is doing symbol associations by just brute force reading a ton of books, and, [00:52:00] um, and trying to understand which things are connected.

[00:52:04] So it has to read 3000 books where some of these are, um, you know, red is referenced with fire and it’ll make a statistical analysis and it would say, okay, red is usually connected with fire. This is how, uh, generative AI works at the moment, like the large language models. But this is a more [00:52:30] comprehensible form of food for a potential ai.

[00:52:36] So it might be better trained in a, in this shape rather than in literary form for this to happen. So. It also might be very useful to people working with language in, in, in this, uh, shape. And again, it’s always going to be free. It’s always going to be open. Like it’s a data [00:53:00] set that is, is very relevant for us.

[00:53:02] So yeah, who knows? 

[00:53:05] diane: Okay. So, and cultural references are something that, I know that when I think Toyota named some, or maybe it was a different brand car maker, but they called something and it was like a bad word, it meant like poop or something and uh, Spanish. And it was like, oh gosh, if they just did, you know, reference something.[00:53:30] 

[00:53:30] So I can see it in naming. I You said storytelling, marketing, there’s lots of even writing. Um, yeah, his Chevy Nova. Um, so I knew it was something, um. I think that, that there’s a, this is just a, something that it can be building on. I’m excited to see. But what would be, so you want some people to volunteer and do some contri contributions and then maybe get some people that, [00:54:00] uh, you trust that would also be those curators or moderators.

[00:54:03] Um, so if anybody’s listening, we’ll share how to get in touch with Dimi. But what is next for this project? Beside you said maybe the spam option. Um, I feel like you, you would be able to, um, figure that out. Um. Like, what’s next? And then what’s long-term dream that it 

[00:54:23] Dimi Lazarou: gets passed on? So, so one, one feature that’s already, uh, technically viable is just hasn’t been incorporated [00:54:30] is the, the randomness, uh, the randomness, uh, question, which is whenever, whenever somebody’s logged in, uh, they can still browse the whole thing, but on the bottom it’s going to have two wor, two randomly selected words and it ask the people whether these are associated between them.

[00:54:52] So, so you can see passion and some are not connected by a single line here. So eventually [00:55:00] passion and summer are going to be randomly picked and people will be able to say whether they’re connected or not. Like in a, um, similar way as you know. Tinder works. Like is this a good match or not? Right? Right.

[00:55:13] Uh, so the, the, the point is eventually it’s going to start learning by, you know, uh, by interaction with humans on whether, um, the sources are more compatible with the themselves. Like [00:55:30] this is the, the absolute next, uh, step. And then, so right now, right now we have about, so all of this galaxy you see is about 35% of the information I have from my personal notes, and I know my personal notes are limited.

[00:55:49] Um, so the thing is when, when the a hundred percent of the knowledge is incorporated, then [00:56:00] we can start seeing. The shape of this thing and use a data scientist to tell us, do you know what fire is really much more important than mountains, uh, in, in the way semiotics works. Or, you know, colors are more widely associated with things rather than physical objects, which is something I’ve already, like in making this thing, I’ve already started noticing the, the pattern.

[00:56:26] So there are, uh, just [00:56:30] mapping this and then deciding, um, how we feel about how, how it looks like is, is the, the next big thing. Like, it’s just, it’s like the human genome, like, you know, mapping it was a thing, and then, and then you see the whole thing and you, you make your own assumptions on, on how it might be working.

[00:56:49] So. There’s still tons of inland, um, things to, to be mapped. Uh, but you know, we’re really, really, really close. [00:57:00] So yeah, even getting people to sort of contribute to that, I have, I have books to share with people and trust me, like the process of transposing the information into pairs of words, like helps me be, become more familiar, uh, with semiotics in general.

[00:57:22] It’s the same way that people are doing the Times tables, you know, uh, just repetition and, and [00:57:30] exposure to it is, is already very helpful. So, um, it’s, I, I know it sounds like a wax on, wax off type of thing. Uh, you just come and work for free in this and you might learn something, but it really, it’s, uh, is the, the one of the reasons I’m doing it myself.

[00:57:49] diane: Okay, I’m gonna stop your participant sharing. Okay. So, um, woo, my thing got blurry there for a second. I think this is really interesting. I do think this is a tool that I would be able to use and I would be able [00:58:00] to tell my students to use. So if somebody wanted to use it, um, they can, they can check out your website at symon.

[00:58:07] I’m gonna, I have it. I’m 

[00:58:09] Dimi Lazarou: dot uk. 

[00:58:10] diane: Yep. Uh, and it’s S-Y-M-B-O-L-O-N branding.uk do co uk but Instagram 

[00:58:18] Dimi Lazarou: has a.in it. Uh, so we’ll need to change that. 

[00:58:22] diane: Okay. I will, I can go back and change. Is it dot branding on that one? Yes. Okay. I will, I’ll get that fixed. Okay. [00:58:30] Um, so. In this, how would best, uh, do they go and just log in?

[00:58:37] Or do they send you an email? How do you want people if they wanna get in touch with you? So 

[00:58:42] Dimi Lazarou: for anyone, for anyone listening to this, the best way is follow us on Instagram and send us a message and say, Hey, I’m this guy, this girl I want to help. How could I help? I have these skills, or I don’t have any skills.

[00:58:57] We can, we can work with anyone. Just send us [00:59:00] a, a direct message on Instagram is the best way to go, and we’ll make an account for you and, and you can help. So I, I think that’s the, the, the most, uh, appropriate way to, to make this happen. 

[00:59:12] diane: Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, um, if you are needing to use it or you want to use it, you can go there and you can, um, I believe you go to symbol on branding dot code.

[00:59:26] Do uk Yes. And then, um, there’s 

[00:59:28] Dimi Lazarou: a link. There’s a link on the menu. [00:59:30] Uh, so. Click on it really easily. It’s always gonna be there, always gonna be free, always going to exist. Like all of this is, is gonna happen in any shape or form with, without needing for anyone to log in or give the data or whatever. 

[00:59:47] diane: And then we can start using it.

[00:59:49] And then if again, uh, if we have questions or we wanna contribute besides just using it or we have an idea, you’re definitely open for [01:00:00] 

[01:00:00] Dimi Lazarou: Absolutely. I’m, I’m, I’m listening to all ideas. I’m, I’m listening to all feedback. Um, if someone needs a version of this, that might be simpler. So for example, like you are, you’re a uni teacher, right?

[01:00:14] And you can tell me like, you know, I don’t really like the fancy lights and the weird shading. Can you make a version for me, which is simpler and more basic foot. Some reason you might want it this way. I’m, I’m always happy to, to collaborate to, to [01:00:30] make something that, that people need in, in this, 

[01:00:33] diane: but it would be good if people were using it and then seeing where maybe there are holes or seeing how it’s working.

[01:00:39] Well, and you would love to hear feedback like that? 

[01:00:44] Dimi Lazarou: Yeah. 

[01:00:45] diane: Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, Dimi, you always have new things that you’re learning and I love that you come on and you share. And this is a tool that I will be using and I will be telling my students about for sure. But I think it’s, [01:01:00] especially for solopreneurs, we are alone and sometimes ideation, we are limited to what we know or what we’ve heard or what we learn.

[01:01:09] But often we might forget something that. Um, is connected. And like the greed thing, I think is a really great example that I need to choose typeface that doesn’t have a connection to greed and has a connection to giving. So it’s softer or it’s a different, um, I love, I love just thinking [01:01:30] about that, uh, because greed was there.

[01:01:33] I don’t want to pick things that are gonna lean that way, so I need to pick things that’ll go the, so I think that was, we don’t always think about, we are trying to make positive connections and really sometimes the negative connections are important as well. ’cause it helps us in our decision making.

[01:01:51] Dimi Lazarou: Yeah, exactly. Like it’s a, it’s a bias. Like anything the, an accurate map helps us, you know, remove some of the, the biases. [01:02:00] So. 

[01:02:00] diane: Yeah. Awesome. Well, Dimi, we did it good. We just did four minutes over, so I’m excited that we. We’re on time 

[01:02:09] Dimi Lazarou: honored, very honored by the people who, uh, stayed as well. And thank you everyone.

[01:02:13] Like it’s, uh, it’s always a, a pleasure to be on Creatives Ignite, and even more so that, you know, uh, we still, you know, didn’t bo anyone, I hope. 

[01:02:25] diane: No. And we now have a new tool that we can use to [01:02:30] maybe help us with when we have biases. So I, I appreciate it and I’m excited that there’s a tool that I didn’t have to create.

[01:02:38] I love that you didn’t find something out there that already existed, so you made it and it wasn’t easy. Um, and I appreciate that you do that. 

[01:02:51] Dimi Lazarou: Thank you. Like, it’s, uh, for me, for me, um, I’m, I’m not satisfied with, you know, everything that exists out there. So I’m always [01:03:00] in the lookout to, uh, you know, to make my own things like, uh, that’s, that’s our main purpose in life, just.

[01:03:07] Change the world in, in a shape that we, we like. 

[01:03:12] diane: Yeah. I love it. Thank you so much, Dimi. I really appreciate it. Always a very 

[01:03:17] Dimi Lazarou: precious host. 

[01:03:18] diane: Well, I’m happy to have you when you do something else new, neat. Just if we need to have a conversation about something. Always. Anytime. Um, next week I start a new [01:03:30] series all about product design.

[01:03:32] And I think if we did product design in that it would, there are so many different, um, uh, definitions of product design or product designer that I’m pretty excited about. Um, interviewing a bunch of different product designers that will be going for a few weeks and, uh, almost, uh, there’s some in November, all of October.

[01:03:55] And, um, I’m, I’m just excited about those. [01:04:00] I. Portions of things that we’re, that I’m learning and I am super, uh, now this is me not being humble, but I’m super excited ’cause I get to interview three of my alumni and that is awesome. And so I’m really excited to see, ’cause I didn’t teach them about product design, so it’s nice to see where their career path goes and how people pivot and go to different things and um, get different people’s perspectives.

[01:04:28] So I’m excited about that. [01:04:30] 

[01:04:30] Dimi Lazarou: Amazing. 

[01:04:31] diane: Yeah. Anyway, well, I will see y’all next week. And Dimi, thank you again so much. 

[01:04:37] Dimi Lazarou: I 

[01:04:37] do.