Font Pairings with Nikki Villagomez

[00:00:00] diane: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Creatives Ignite. Last time Nikki was on, it was design, recharge. It still is design recharge in my heart a little bit, I think. Um, but I did brand change. But you and I have both been doing, you’ve, you’ve got me beat by at least a year. ’cause you started collecting images.

[00:00:25] I called you a connoisseur of signs and [00:00:30] typography. Um, ’cause when you were going out and you were visiting different places, you would take out your camera or your phone, probably your camera at some point. Um, and you would take pictures of these signs and manhole covers anything with typography, and you noticed some things.

[00:00:46] And back in 2015 you wrote this book. Um, and then, and you did, I, I, I’ve already asked you this, so, but I’m gonna ask you now live. And then we’ll do an intro. But Nikki, at this point, when you wrote this [00:01:00] book, did you think there was another book in you? 

[00:01:03] Nikki Villagomez: No. Diane, the answer is no. And don’t ask me if there’s another book.

[00:01:07] I think there is. I think 

[00:01:09] diane: there’ll be another book for sure. It took me 10 years. So, so in 2015, not quite 10 years you did it. Uh, so in so, but almost 10 years, you wrote the second book. And this is really what we’re talking about today and what I love, it’s about font, pairings and I struggle and a lot of my [00:01:30] students struggle and a lot of people, some people, I think the next one should be about color because that’s the next thing I struggle with.

[00:01:35] But um, so this one was culture and typography. This is still culture and typography, but this one is specific to font pairing. So Nikki, you are a full-time designer and you’re in-house designer and you have been an, um, you’ve. Worked for yourself. You’ve worked for corporations for a long time and you [00:02:00] are creative director.

[00:02:01] You’ve built, um, departments from nothing to something or big, small to big. And so it’s impressive to me. And then how books asked you, um, you were doing a lot of talks. Mm-Hmm. And ’cause you started the chapter, the A IGA chapter in, um, South Carolina. In South Carolina, in Columbia. And that was what one of the, when we talked, um, one time, I think you’ve been on more, more than once, but one time it was about how [00:02:30] to start A-A-I-G-A chapter.

[00:02:31] And you were really influential. And I think you were going around talking to different, um, areas about, about this. And you talked to us about it and we were able to build a chapter, um, and then Covid came and whatever. Um, so, but then you, you did this, but throughout this whole time, you’ve always had your camera taking typography.

[00:02:51] Mm-Hmm. So the culture in typography started here. Tell us, give us just a little bit of your background. You’ve also taught at the University of South Carolina, but we’re not [00:03:00] gonna talk about that ’cause you don’t wanna cry ’cause you loved it so much, but tell them just a little bit. Give them a better intro than I did.

[00:03:09] Nikki Villagomez: Um, so I grew up in Greenville, South Carolina. I went to school at LSU, I played tennis for them for four years. I graduated with A BFA in graphic design. Um, got married in the living room of my parents’ house by the guy who married my parents. And then the next day, um, we moved to New York City. And, um, I worked there for three years.

[00:03:29] [00:03:30] And when my husband got his master’s from Columbia University, we re relocated to Columbia, South Carolina with a job for him. And so that’s when I started freelancing. I started the A IGA chapter. That’s when I met Stephanie. Um, I’m not gonna cry this time talking about it. So, um, I taught, I taught, uh, intro to graphic design and intro to typography, um, for five years at the University of South Carolina as an adjunct.

[00:03:54] And that’s when like, I really, really fell in love with typography. Um, and I just absolutely loved [00:04:00] it. Um, and that’s when I started the South Carolina chapter of A IGA. And we were there for about nine years. I had my kids there. Um, and then I was offered an in-house position that would relocate us to Ohio.

[00:04:13] And so I, we moved to Ohio. Um, and it was about two months into that job being in a corporate environment with very heavy guardrails of brand standards, two fonts, five colors, everything was so locked down with what we could do that I knew [00:04:30] I needed to find some kind of an outlet for my love of. Design and especially my love of typography.

[00:04:35] And so, um, I started my WordPress blog in 2011, um, where I would come in at five o’clock in the morning and I would talk about a manhole cover in, um, Cleveland, Ohio compared to a manhole cover in Austin, Texas, or graffiti in two different parts of the country. Um, and I would just do the blog every day, five days a week.

[00:04:54] And then, um, then the speaking engagement started, um, and then I spoke at how, which is how the, [00:05:00] that book, my first book came to be. ’cause it’s published by How Books. Um, but all, all this way, all through my career, my professional career, I’ve pretty much stayed an in-house designer. Right now I’m Chief Marketing Officer at an accounting firm based out of Greensboro, North Carolina.

[00:05:16] Um, I’ve maintained my blog and I’ve maintained my speak engagements, being able to travel around the country. Um, but one of the things that stuck with me as I was teaching, um, graphic design and typography at [00:05:30] USC was how difficult it is for students to pair type. Um, and it was very difficult for me as a student to pair type.

[00:05:38] It’s not anything that, it’s, it’s just very hard to teach and it’s almost like it’s intuitive and once you get it, you get it, but you’re not really sure how you get it or when. Um, and so I thought, as I was thinking about putting together a second book. I was thinking, I’m gonna look at all my signs through the lens of pairing fonts in an effort to help [00:06:00] students or or professionals learn how to pair fonts more successfully by showing examples of what’s working or showing examples of what’s not working and really explain why.

[00:06:11] And I think that’s the biggest difference in my second book compared to my first, is that I really, um, forced myself to make opinions as opposed to just kind of being like, here’s, here’s an example of a sign. Like I’m actually saying this is not good and this is why there’s too much space. The letters are wonky there, there the NINGs off.

[00:06:29] Um, [00:06:30] and so I really forced myself to be, um, opinionated in this second book and the hope that it helps. 

[00:06:35] diane: So, so maybe part of what we have trouble with is that having a strong opinion. Yeah. Um, I think it’s also, um, so we find fonts that go well together and then we. We use them because we can use them, but we don’t.

[00:06:54] And you told me you had a great example of, you would look at a lot of students, you would do a lot of, as you [00:07:00] would tour, you would do some, um, portfolio reviews. Portfolio reviews, yeah. And you notice something. Can you tell them that story? 

[00:07:06] Nikki Villagomez: Yes. And so in the midst of all of this traveling, very often I would have to attend, I would be asked to attend local universities and be part of their portfolio review.

[00:07:18] And I loved it because I love teaching so much. So any opportunity to be back in front of students, I would jump at the chance. And so it is very common for me to see if a student had a very successful project [00:07:30] at some point in the semester that the rest of their portfolio looked like that project because the pairing of these two typefaces or this color palette was very successful for this specific project, it’s very hard for them to have the confidence to move away from that and understand that it was successful for that one moment.

[00:07:49] Um, but it’s not meant to be repeated for the rest of the portfolio. And so, um, I saw that as a, as a teacher. And then, um, seeing that in these portfolios [00:08:00] has stuck with me as well. 

[00:08:02] diane: Well, and I think that when you are, like what you said was working corporate, you do have limited Yeah. There’s not as much, um, flexibility or variety that you can kind of bring in.

[00:08:14] And so as you’re looking, you’re looking for that variety when you’re taking pictures or seeing things. Yeah. And I do love that this book does have more of a, um, I mean, I think the other one, it talked about the culture and how design was different [00:08:30] in Hawaii as compared to South Carolina and Ohio as compared to Arizona.

[00:08:35] You know, it just is different. And I think that that’s interesting for us to think, oh wow, we’re really actually making a, um. It, it, what we are doing and what we’re seeing around us actually influences the what we think is good or what we’re putting out there. Yeah. Um, sometimes just what clients are wanting or what they’re forcing us to do.

[00:08:57] Right. And at some point in our career we’re like, I [00:09:00] can’t ethically do this ugly design for you. You know, like, um, or at least that’s how I feel sometimes. So, but from the, this book to this book, this one is how, um, publishing and then this one is you. So Self-published. So, um, this one came out in 2015, so with four years under your belt of taking photos, and I think you probably pulled some photos from those two, two, only [00:09:30] two photos, only two that are from the early Mm-Hmm.

[00:09:32] So that just means you’ve been doing lots of traveling, which I think is great. Um, but so, um, from 2015. It’s an awesome book. Did you have, at that point I asked you, you said you didn’t have an idea that there was another book. You actually didn’t really love the process. Can you talk about, because for you to say you didn’t really enjoy it and then you to do a book and do it, self-published, it’s like a double [00:10:00] doozy, you know?

[00:10:00] I know. So, so talk about what wasn’t, what maybe didn’t, um, because it is a big undertaking to take on a book. Um, and then you did so many speaking with it as well. So was any of that kind of part of like, Hey, I, I wanna breathe, I wanna be at home more, or what were some of the things that you thought at that point you were like, I’m not gonna do another book.

[00:10:26] Nikki Villagomez: Um, I think it was really difficult for me with the how book I. [00:10:30] Working with an editor because they were just, they rode me hard about deadlines and you need to, and then they’d come back and I would, you know, I’d write a whole section. They’d come back, you need to rewrite this. You need to add more content here.

[00:10:42] You need to redo this whole thing. I just did not like that. I don’t consider myself a writer. Um, even though I’ve written two books, I consider myself a designer and a marketer now. And, um, it was very challenging for me. And so when I tackled [00:11:00] this book, I knew I wanted to self-publish so that I would determine the timeline.

[00:11:04] I would determine how it sounded, because it was really important to me that it’s in my voice and not somebody else’s voice. Um, and that the opinions that I had came from a source that meant something rather than somebody telling me I needed to do it a certain way. Okay. So then taking 

[00:11:21] diane: it on as a self-published book.

[00:11:23] Mm-Hmm. There’s. And Paul’s here, he’s a book book designer. So he deal [00:11:30] deals with a lot of authors. And so there’s more than just actually doing the design. Um, and Paul doesn’t do the promotion or anything, but you’re having to do the promotion. You’re actually, um, ha you’re selling the, you’re doing the fulfillment or the Mm-Hmm.

[00:11:46] Distribution as well. Mm-Hmm. So, um, and you still have a full-time job. And two kids. And a husband. Yeah. So, um, so what, what made it, was it enough that you [00:12:00] could take time off, you could write when you wanted to, when you had windows of opportunities and there wasn’t this pressure, um, but what was it that made you think, oh my gosh, I need to do a book?

[00:12:14] Because it, it’s a lot, uh, to undertake, right, to write a book, but that it was so important about font pairing. Like what about. Font pairings made. You were like, I’ll come out, I’ll come out from retirement and do it again. I, I 

[00:12:28] Nikki Villagomez: think because I had so [00:12:30] many pictures and I think 85% of the pictures in my first book, those signs are now gone.

[00:12:36] Um, so it has turned into more of a historical documentation of all of these things I have seen, and now I have all of these other pictures I’ve taken in the last 10 years that are just stuck in my Dropbox that nobody sees. Um, and so as I’ve put this book together and done, gone back and done the research, I have realized yet again that about 80% of these signs are gone.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] Um, and so it’s just, to me, it’s a way to document the places I’ve been. It’s a way to thank the people who have brought me to the places where I’ve been able to travel to that I would never have been able to see before, and then put it in a context that hopefully will help. The next generation of designers and the professionals today.

[00:13:19] Um, because I, I have tried to find books on how to pair fonts and the only thing I have found are like, um, well they’ll, they’ll put the whole alphabet down next to the whole [00:13:30] alphabet of another type face. And to me that’s not very relatable and it doesn’t really help me. I, I need to see it in use. And so I thought this could be a really good, a good avenue.

[00:13:40] diane: Okay. So with self-publishing, this will be the last question I think about self, self-publishing. What made, um, so you were your own editor, you were your own deadline Yeah. Driver. Um, and you, um, you had to find, again, not as big deal for you ’cause you’re a [00:14:00] designer, uh, to find a printer to Mm-Hmm. Are you putting it in?

[00:14:04] I know it’s in some stores in Charlotte, North Carolina. Mm-Hmm. Um, but like. How else are you getting word out? Um, I mean, as soon as you post it on Facebook, I’m like, sign me up. I’ve Venmo you my money. And then thank you. I you the next whatever week or something. I got the book. Yeah. And you wrote, and maybe you don’t write it for everybody, but you wrote a little, um, note for me and I really appreciated [00:14:30] that.

[00:14:30] And I mean, it’s a, it’s a really nice, and it, it, it goes really well together. They’re very mm-Hmm. Similar, I mean, very slightly different in size. Yeah. I mean like a, maybe a quarter of an inch different. Mm-Hmm. Is all. Um, but it’s a great, I just, and so I’d love for you to tell people a little bit about that process of choosing the printer and Mm-Hmm.

[00:14:53] How you’re. I mean, you’re working full time, uh, you have kids that are in sports and stuff, so [00:15:00] how are you spending, how much time distribute, uh, in distribution, like trying to get it in or like, Nope, we’re not worried about that. We’re just shipping and I’ve paying a friend to ship stuff out or something.

[00:15:14] Nikki Villagomez: So when I was, I spoke in Los Angeles last fall when I had just convinced myself that I was gonna be writing another book, and there’s a designer out there that has a book called LA Signs, and it’s just, it’s, there’s no writing. It’s just like a picture book of. Storefronts [00:15:30] that he’s taken pictures of, but the book is so nicely published.

[00:15:33] I messaged him and asked him, where, where did you print this? And he said, oh, I self-published it. And so I, I asked for his vendor and that’s who I ended up using. It’s called Mix ’em. Um, and I’ve used them to self-publish. They have specific sizes. Um, so I was limited to what size they had and it, this one was the closest to my other book.

[00:15:51] diane: Right. 

[00:15:51] Nikki Villagomez: Um, but I’ve been very happy with them. Um, they’ve done a really good job. Yep. That’s that mix ’em. Um, and then, [00:16:00] um, what I really love about it is after my first run I printed 75 books. I caught two typos and I fixed the spine issue. And so, uh, the next shipment of 75 comes tomorrow. And to, for me, that means everything that I own, the entire book, the how book, I have about 15 copies left and then it’s gone.

[00:16:20] I mean, that’s it. I don’t have it anymore ’cause I never owned it. They did. Right. Um, so this book, I have it, I can make edits, I can order on demand as needed. Um, [00:16:30] when I was in Los Angeles, um, a guy came to my presentation there that owns, he does a pop-up shop. And so he has my, my book in his pop-up shop in Los Angeles.

[00:16:40] I shipped him, um, copies when I was in Corpus Christi. I wandered into a store that had, um, a mannequin out front that was wearing a T-shirt with a manhole cover on it. So I went in saying, this is my store. This is my kind of store. Um, and so I messaged them. I bought that T-shirt of course, but then I messaged them afterwards [00:17:00] of several weeks ago and said, I was in your store.

[00:17:02] There’s several pictures in my book from Corpus, would you be willing to carry my book in your store? And so my book is in Corpus Christi and then the ones in in Charlotte, um, are here. And then I was just in Cincinnati and I’m trying to get my book in the American Sign Museum, uh, which to me would be so awesome ’cause that’s such a, one of my favorite places in the country.

[00:17:23] That’s cool. I’ll try. It’s just by me reaching out to, to places, it’s, it is hard. It’s not that enjoyable of a [00:17:30] process, to be honest with you, trying to get it out. Um, but the main distribution is, I just take it with me. It’s my little sidekick with my speaking engagements. I take it with me in, in the hopes I can sell them on the road.

[00:17:40] Yeah. 

[00:17:41] diane: So then if somebody like today wanted it Mm-Hmm. And will tell you how to go about getting, you can actually get both for, um, one price. Yes. Um, and um, but if somebody was doing that, then that comes in, you get your Venmo or PayPal or whatever it is. Yeah. [00:18:00] And then. Do are, is one of your kids doing this shipping?

[00:18:04] Are you doing this shipping? Oh God, no. 

[00:18:08] Nikki Villagomez: Absolutely not. Um, no, I just, um, I have envelopes here ready to go and I’ll just go to the post office and mail them. So they arrived. I think yours arrived in what, three or four days after you bought it? Yeah, yeah. Pretty quick. 

[00:18:20] diane: Yeah, totally quick. Okay, cool. Um, my dog is so, um, but only 75 copies such a small run and it [00:18:30] is a, uh, pretty good size book, a hundred and fourteen, fifteen sixty one twenty.

[00:18:37] So it’s not small. Um, I mean it’s packed lot full color, really nice all the way through. I’ve been happy with Mix ’em also. Um, but so that’s a good question. 75 copies is why such a small number then. Is that a small number? I felt like it was a lot, 

[00:18:59] Nikki Villagomez: um, because [00:19:00] on average I sell like 10, 10 to 15 books a talk.

[00:19:04] And so, I don’t know, I just, I feel like that’ll take me through probably next year or the middle of next year. And so then that’s the beauty of it. I can order more. Um, also trying to control the finances and not order a, a ton of ’em. ’cause I have to store them in my house too. 

[00:19:19] diane: Right, because there’s storage, right?

[00:19:21] Yeah. So, so that’s the other, um, part of it. So when you’re gonna take on something like this, there has to be someone, and you’re [00:19:30] probably not spending 10% of your week calling bookstores to see if they’re gonna No. Hold your thing. Only when it fits, when it’s a good fit, you’re, you’re gonna do that. And I think that that is good for us to remember.

[00:19:45] Mm-Hmm. Um, but sometimes there’s other companies that will, can do that fulfillment if it got to a point. Yeah. And then you would probably, uh, order, order more. Right. Order more. But this, because you’re doing it, you have to store it and ship ’em. Mm-Hmm. [00:20:00] 75 at a time is something like, how many are you taking when you go on a trip and if you have to fly Mm-Hmm.

[00:20:06] Worst case scenario you have to fly. How many books are you taking with you? About 10. It’s 

[00:20:12] Nikki Villagomez: only 10. So if I sell out and I need to mail more, then I, I have to ship ’em when I get home. Right. But it’s just not economical to be shipping books all over the country, wherever I go, so I just take ’em 

[00:20:24] diane: with me.

[00:20:25] Yeah, no, I totally, totally get that. So, um, [00:20:30] now, now my. Dog is, anyway. He just keeps crying over there. So, um, okay. So, um, this book has, I call it beautiful observations. That’s what it, it seems like, but there’s also opinions, um, and it is history. It is this historical ’cause you were said eight, you said 85% are gone now.

[00:20:55] Yeah. A lot of them are gone. Yeah. It’s sad. So, um, [00:21:00] what made you want, so it within with font pairings, ’cause you’ve talked about, I mean, we could have done font pairings in a lot of different ways. So this is a very observational, um Right. Like we could have done it with the whole alphabet and not ever even take a picture, a photo of actually what was done.

[00:21:22] Mm-Hmm. But there is a lot of historical, so what about the historical makes it easier or harder to write? [00:21:30] An opinion about, ’cause there, uh, manhole covers, hand painted, um, hand lettering, um, 

[00:21:39] Nikki Villagomez: yep. Neon signs, building signs. I did spend quite a bit of time where I could, filling in the historical information of the science.

[00:21:46] So there is, it’s probably equal parts, historical information of the sign that I could find paired with what’s working with the font, hearing what’s not working. And then I end each chapter with a page on what [00:22:00] themes emerged from this chapter that we can learn from, um, based on the findings. So I tried, I tried to have all make it all encompassing 

[00:22:09] diane: for those things, but I, what I, what I love is that it’s the, you have stuff in there that is what’s working, but you also have the, what’s not working.

[00:22:17] ’cause sometimes if all we’re seeing is the, what’s working, it’s really hard as you’re learning, as you’re trying to get better at this skill to see. How, you know what, some people just still put stuff [00:22:30] up. It’s not great, but here’s why I, so I really like the, um, explanation or Mm-hmm. The reasoning.

[00:22:38] Obviously you didn’t design these, but you’re saying here’s what you’re think works and here’s what’s not working, and here’s some things to avoid. And there are some, um, real geeky typography things, which I think, right. What 

[00:22:52] Nikki Villagomez: Diane? 

[00:22:54] diane: The um, the, um, the thing about the apostrophe, so you have [00:23:00] a slide of this, I think.

[00:23:02] Yeah. But tell us about what, why those different, um, so manhole covers neon signs. I think you have a picture in your Yeah, I do pull, I can share my screen pull. Yeah, that would be great. So 

[00:23:14] Nikki Villagomez: when I started the project the same way I did with my first book, it is a very daunting task. And so I always start with the table of contents and tell myself, I’m just gonna design this one page today.

[00:23:24] I’m gonna figure out. The chapters, I’m gonna figure out the layout and I’m gonna walk away. And [00:23:30] usually this is all it takes to spur enough interest in me to come back the next day and keep going. Um, so the lesson here is whenever I am faced with a daunting task, whether at work or at home doing laundry, just fold one shirt.

[00:23:43] It’s enough to get you in there and do the rest of it. Um, I start with a small bite and it’s enough to keep going. So I try to break a big task down small. Um, so for me, for writing a book, it was doing the table of contents. Um, this is, so why 

[00:23:59] diane: [00:24:00] those specific ones? ’cause the other book had some, I, I know that there were some, um, there, I know there were manhole covers in the other one.

[00:24:09] Yeah. And are you, is there like a blog post about each of these images already? Are, were you able to pull from some of you? Not necessarily. 

[00:24:18] Nikki Villagomez: No. I didn’t reference my blog at all. Okay. Putting this book together, I did not reference it at all. Okay. Um. I knew I wanted a chapter on ghost signs. I knew I had to have a chapter on manhole covers.

[00:24:28] I didn’t know if I could pull it [00:24:30] off, if there was enough font pairings. ’cause that was the rule is I had to have more than two font. I had to have at least two typefaces on the whatever I’m talking about. Right. And typically, manhole covers is just one. So I didn’t know if I could pull off manhole covers, but I, I tried really hard to get it in there.

[00:24:46] Um, hand lettering, neon signs, and building signs. So to me, I knew I needed a catchall chapter at the end. I went back and forth about calling it building signs or just signs. Um, but I knew I needed [00:25:00] something that didn’t fit in the other categories that would capture pretty much everything else without going overboard.

[00:25:06] Um, I did add the reflections, the last page at the last, at the last week. So that originally wasn’t in there. I did end up adding that because I felt like I needed something to summarize the whole book. 

[00:25:18] diane: And in the last book there was graffiti. You still have ghost signs, manhole covers, graffiti, hand lettering, signage, neon signs, and there was, um, way finding, and then you had the kind of end was [00:25:30] the cultural observations.

[00:25:31] Mm-Hmm. Um, so it’s interesting. There’s some of the same, but my finding isn’t 

[00:25:36] Nikki Villagomez: gonna have 

[00:25:37] diane: multiple typefaces. 

[00:25:38] Nikki Villagomez: Like your typical straight sign is just the white text on green. It’s not gonna yield anything interesting there. Right. Um, graffiti is the same thing. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s an art to itself, but you’re not really looking at anything in a way to pair type faces and what you can take away from it.

[00:25:54] So I knew those two chapters were gonna be out. Cool. I end each chapter with a theme. [00:26:00] Um, this was a very hard page to write every single time. Um, all five chapters. Um, trying to be concise with my thoughts in a way that was still meaningful. Um. While showing an example that was used in the chapter, but I felt, I feel like these are probably the five most important pages of the book.

[00:26:19] ’cause it summarizes everything in one 

[00:26:21] diane: page. I can imagine that would be hard. ’cause you probably have how many images in a chapter you think? Maybe 40 to [00:26:30] 50. Yeah. So you’re, yeah, that’s, 

[00:26:33] Nikki Villagomez: it’s the manhole cover is my smallest chapter. That one probably has like 20 or 25 maybe. Still this spread was a light bulb moment for me.

[00:26:43] Um, I walked past this sign that was like in on an easel in Reno, Nevada, outside of a pawn shop. And I just was so, it just completely caught me off guard how beautiful it was with the hand lettering and how much detail there was. And just this one sign, um, all hand [00:27:00] lettered all of the detail. It’s just so well done.

[00:27:02] It’s meant for people walking by. Nobody in a car would be able to read it. It’s too detailed. Um, and so I spent. I know it’s only two paragraphs, but I spent a lot of time writing those two paragraphs about this sign. And then as I was writing it, I thought, I need to show why this is so good. I’m gonna redesign this entire recreate, not redesign, re recreate this sign using Ariel, just to show [00:27:30] why this is so much more effective, um, using hand lettering.

[00:27:34] I think I used Ariel and Brush script, the two most basic fonts there are, right? Um, and you can literally see how the differences and how the one on the left has so much more personality and, um, energy to it. It’s so much more inviting than the one on the right. And so this to me is a, is a very important spread in the book.

[00:27:55] I love that. Um, this page [00:28:00] is something, this second paragraph I have had in my head for a very long time, over a decade of how to handle an apostrophe when a sign is mounted vertically. And I have seen many different rendering of this, um, the one taken here in Memphis, the apostrophes before the s um, I drew have examples here where the apostrophes after the r, um, and then the example that I think is correct.

[00:28:29] So this is again, me [00:28:30] going out on a limb and forming my own opinion. I believe the apostrophe should be in its own circle, which is how it is here. Um. I have seen many different examples of how it is, and there is no right way. I don’t think it’s, there’s ever anybody who said this is how it should be done.

[00:28:45] Clearly, because there are so many different examples out there. I definitely don’t think this one in Memphis is correct. Um, and so this page was awesome. I was like, we can only 

[00:28:54] diane: pay for five circles, you know? 

[00:28:59] Nikki Villagomez: That’s right. And who [00:29:00] knows? I mean, maybe this was an older sign that they came in and, you know, refurbished it to fit their needs.

[00:29:06] Who knows? Um, but I thought it was an interesting conversation to have and to make a, an opinion about it. 

[00:29:12] diane: It is, and I don’t know what the rule would be either. So again, like. To me, this is the geeky type conversation that maybe we can’t really have with our spouse or with maybe some of the people we work with we could have it with.

[00:29:28] But some of us, a lot of us [00:29:30] here are, we work alone, so we’re having this conversation with each other or we’re not having it. And I think this is a interesting. I love because you’ve had the observation, you’ve seen it in places. Mm-Hmm. What, what are people doing? What is working? And you’re making that opinion.

[00:29:50] Mm-Hmm. To me that is, um, really nice to be able to see. So, 

[00:29:56] Nikki Villagomez: and I, I don’t know why this dire sign, the [00:30:00] apostrophe just doesn’t look right, like in my head it just, this doesn’t look, it looks wrong. It looks like a typo. Mm-Hmm. And so writing this book, I was forced to analyze why do I feel like it’s wrong and explain it in a meaningful way that makes sense.

[00:30:11] And so for me, it made sense to write out with these examples, showing the other alternatives, and then come to the conclusion that this one looks the most correct. 

[00:30:21] diane: Paul says that makes sense about the apostrophe a mono space font it would take up right its own space. And, um, Amy Lynn says her [00:30:30] husband gets to hear her mini rants from time to time about Oh my goodness.

[00:30:33] That kerning is awful. So, yes, I, I definitely know. Or where the comma goes when there’s a quote marks or whatever. Oh yeah. You know. Yeah. Yep. 

[00:30:44] Nikki Villagomez: Okay. And then this sign, um, I’m actually going to Fargo, North Dakota next week for a presentation with a a F North Dakota. This sign is on the cover of my sign building signs chapter.

[00:30:56] Um, and I was so excited to be able to use this in my [00:31:00] presentation and talk about how it’s in my new book. I mean, I thought this sign was so interesting looking. It’s so unusual and it’s right next to the Fargo, um, marquee, the theater marquee that’s in downtown Fargo. And so as I was doing research on this sign, I have found out it is now gone and it looks like this now.

[00:31:17] So the double whammy of realizing they have recolored it to the McDonald’s colors and used papyrus, it’s like just stab me in the heart and in the back. [00:31:30] Um, so I’m gonna have to have a conversation with them next week when I’m there. 

[00:31:34] diane: Well, it’s funny because one of the things that works so well, uh, I don’t love vertical type.

[00:31:39] I think vertical type’s hard to read. It’s, but the white and banner Uhhuh, it has a really high ex site, so from far away we can read it. Yeah, yeah. And without that, and there is that in that leg of the end that I guess that’s a leg. Yeah. Yeah. Or Yeah. The squash, yes. That it kind of [00:32:00] hovers under, but it still isn’t taking up.

[00:32:03] The h does it too. It doesn’t, it gives it so much more warmth and then the papyrus is just, it’s painful. Absolutely painful. The X height is so small. Mm-Hmm. And I try to get this across when I’m teaching typography that it’s about warmth, it’s about being open and, um, it looks more inviting. I could walk in the white banner uniforms or white, whatever [00:32:30] it is.

[00:32:30] Mm-Hmm. I don’t really know how to say it, but boss’s pizza, uh, does have a, um, weird, you know, fast food feel. Yeah. Um, because of the colors, but then why papyrus, you know? And then such a short, I don’t know. It’s awful. It feel like stabbed me in the back too. It is a cool sign. I wonder if they have to have those circles for wind.

[00:32:56] I don’t 

[00:32:57] Nikki Villagomez: know. That’s a good question. I don’t know. [00:33:00] I don’t know. But, uh, you asked when you’re there. I’m gonna ask them. I’m gonna, I’m gonna get to the bottom of it and then so this page took me the longest. Um, this one is probably the most important to me because I have a hate, not a love, hate a hate relationship when somebody puts an object in the place of a letter.

[00:33:25] Mm-Hmm. I have always hated it. My family knows I hate it. It’s just being in [00:33:30] from South Carolina, people love to put the palm tree and the crescent moon in the place of literally every letter in the alphabet. It doesn’t even make sense. And it’s in there. 

[00:33:39] diane: Right. Um. 

[00:33:41] Nikki Villagomez: And I knew I had to for my mental health, get that out and put it on the paper and say it with confidence that a letter is not the, what you can’t see there is it says freaking a letter is not a freaking object.

[00:33:56] Um, it is not, and an object is not a letter. And [00:34:00] so this State Street sign taken in Madison, Wisconsin is a great example where they’re putting the Capitol building, which is right behind this picture. It’s right in the background as the letter A, and it just makes me so mad when I see it. And so I knew for my mental health, I had to really come out publicly when my opinion and put it in writing.

[00:34:19] Um, and this and the apostrophe were both, it only took up a paragraph on the page, but it was really important for me to 

[00:34:26] diane: get it 

[00:34:26] Nikki Villagomez: out. 

[00:34:27] diane: Well, I think that the more we worked with [00:34:30] something or the more we’ve seen it, um, make it hard to read for our viewers. Yeah. Or confusing. Um. That’s where it starts breaking down and we really shouldn’t do those things, you know, like Right.

[00:34:45] Um, there will always be pe it’s always good to break the rules, I think. But I also think, ugh is legibility is it? I always think, you know, when people put images on top of, or on underneath type, it’s like, do you [00:35:00] want me to read the image or do you want me to read the type Because I can’t really read both Right.

[00:35:06] Ing it’s, yeah, it’s, it can be one of those things where mm-Hmm. I also really hate big first letters and then, oh yeah. Like or a different font or uhhuh use the F for farm federation for both. It looks like arm federation, it doesn’t look like farm. You know, like Yeah, can you just gimme two F’s? Like, and I think it’s just ’cause I see a lot of bad [00:35:30] stuff.

[00:35:30] ’cause I’m helping people in the very beginning stages and they. Pull up something and they’re like, I saw this on the internet, it should be. And I’m like, it, my mom could have posted stuff on the internet, you know? She didn’t know anything. There was Yeah. It doesn’t matter if it’s on the internet. Right.

[00:35:47] Um, anyway, so, uh, Paul says that’s a bummer. I always liked the Madison State Street signs, but never looked that close to be fair. Hear the word spacing. Okay. But we are [00:36:00] talking type. Yes, true. So, um, but anyway, so we are talking about the image, using an image instead of a, uh, letter or making an, in South Carolina it is like you have your whole life had that crescent moon as a sea probably and a the Mm-Hmm.

[00:36:19] Palm tree and is a T and double Ls. Oh yeah. Yes. We see it everywhere. Yeah. It’s, it’s awful. So what, what was the next one? Because there were some things that were [00:36:30] really, um, I mean, I think with the manhole covers, it’s like Mm-Hmm. Just beauty, right? Because they’re spending money. Not that these people weren’t spending money, but the manhole covers is a part of the book that you love.

[00:36:44] But it also, I didn’t notice. I didn’t know until, I think when you, we talked before about the, um, I didn’t really ever notice manhole covers, and then you were the one who kind of turned me onto them. Mm-Hmm. But there really were, I mean, some people are [00:37:00] spending a lot of money on the design of this manhole cover, which is obviously one color.

[00:37:05] And you have, um, uh, you know, it there. I don’t know, bronze or whatever, metal, and they’re, but you’re pouring it in and they’re making this metal great. Like a cast uhhuh, right? 

[00:37:18] Nikki Villagomez: Yeah, 

[00:37:19] diane: iron probably. I think they’re ironed 

[00:37:20] Nikki Villagomez: because they weigh a ton, but, um, I, I don’t, I don’t think I have a picture of ’em. This is just the thing for my books, but, um, I, it’s basically funded by [00:37:30] the city for the most part.

[00:37:31] The ones that have them, um, they’re funded by the city or the government, and they’re usually a competition to have somebody come in and design them. Um, the really intricate ones, a lot of times they’re the city seal, um, or the flag of the city is what’s put on the manhole cover or sometimes, like here in Charlotte, they’re nothing.

[00:37:49] Um, and there’s just nothing there. And so, um, that has been, what is fascinating to me as I travel around is seeing how they change from city to city and [00:38:00] if they, if they, um. What, what can I, what can I gather from the manhole covers that’s unique to the city that I’m in? And sometimes, and it’s fact, it’s been fascinating 

[00:38:09] diane: and sometimes it’s like there’s a big water or city water meter and that’s one font and then there’s another smaller type that goes around.

[00:38:17] Yeah. I also think type on circles is difficult for a lot of people, um, because the spacing can be hard to read. Um, yeah. So it’s like what things are on a straight [00:38:30] line. So, um, I don’t know if you talked about that at all, but there’s a lot of, um, just design element. Yeah, I didn’t talk 

[00:38:38] Nikki Villagomez: about 

[00:38:38] diane: that. You did.

[00:38:39] Nikki Villagomez: I do talk about. Okay, good. Type on a line and type on a curve to be, to be specific. Page 33, Diane. Okay. I was on 39. So there’s a manhole cover in Kalamazoo Mis Michigan, um, where they attempt to put the name of the university, Western Michigan University around the entire cover. [00:39:00] Right. And you can’t, you can’t read anything.

[00:39:01] I can stop, right, because it’s taken 

[00:39:03] diane: the whole screen. Oh yeah, you can, 

[00:39:04] Nikki Villagomez: um, it’s hard to, to see. You can’t even see it in the picture much less. And you share, but that, um, but it’s the, it’s the Seal of Western Michigan University that they put on the cover. 

[00:39:14] diane: So, but that is, that talks goes back to logos and if it works big or small, if you have big city water, sewer, yeah.

[00:39:23] Your small type has to be. Readable at the small type when you’re, you know, [00:39:30] the, the, which is also a part of font pairings, the size of the type or the, for a logo stuff, it would be size of icon and size of type. But when we are just talking about, about font pairings, this is what gets my panties in a w You know, when I’m, kids have these big words and the tiny little, and I’m like, uh, when, when do we stop using the small text?

[00:39:53] And they’re like, never. That’s part of the logo. And I’m like, well, I can’t read it and it’s too small. And I [00:40:00] love, these are my favorite pens. I’m a big pen, super ch girl. And I always come back to it because they have a little icon, the little man. Mm-Hmm. But then bick is pretty big, you know? Yeah.

[00:40:11] Comparatively, they’re more of the same size. And I think that. As students are learning, they think the icon should be big and the type should be small. Mm-Hmm. And that’s not, it needs to be readable. And I love the manhole cover example of that. Things are, [00:40:30] you don’t have to have it spaced all the way around the circle.

[00:40:33] Right. You know, it can just be portions, which I think some people are doing it really well. I do love the manhole cover, uh, section for sure. So. 

[00:40:42] Nikki Villagomez: Well, and the thing, interesting thing about manhole covers is in addition to everything you just said, it has to hold up with extreme weather. So heat cold, uh, the middle of the road with trucks going over it.

[00:40:55] Um, all of that. 

[00:40:56] diane: Yeah. And, and when, if you’re in a [00:41:00] snowy area, if there are plows. Plows, right. Yeah. So you may have to, I don’t know, you’re thinking about all different kinds of things that go into it. So, um, in this book, um. The only difference was building signs, um, was added. And then I asked if you had of ghost signs, manhole covers, hand lettering, neon signs, and building signs.

[00:41:25] Do you have a favorite of those? Out of the, out of all 

[00:41:29] Nikki Villagomez: [00:41:30] the chapters? 

[00:41:31] diane: Well, just like, if, if you could only look at either go signs, manhole covers, hand lettering, neon signs, or building signs, which one would you choose? That would be manhole covers. 

[00:41:42] Nikki Villagomez: Okay. 

[00:41:43] diane: What’s second place? 

[00:41:45] Nikki Villagomez: Um, I really love neon signs. I love, um, looking at them close up and zooming in on the different curves and how the letters are formed together with the, the tubing.

[00:41:56] I think it’s really intricate and interesting to see [00:42:00] the creativities that have been taken to put words together by pairing the, the me merging of the letters. It’s like a aggressive cursive. 

[00:42:09] diane: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I was trying to go make sure I’ve got, um, are there any other nuggets of, from this observation that now you use in your, if you were freelancing or you were Mm-Hmm.

[00:42:27] Making a poster, you were doing something that [00:42:30] you’ve uncovered about font pairings that you didn’t necessarily know before. 

[00:42:35] Nikki Villagomez: Um, writing this book. Is there anything that I, so, yeah, so 

[00:42:38] diane: yeah. From the, in this research, um, yeah. And that you’ve now uncovered about font pairings that, I know we’ve talked about some, but that you’re like, oh, I will continue to do this.

[00:42:50] I will do this differently now. Or because I did this research, now I know what works and ’cause I didn’t know it, that could never find a rule for this. [00:43:00] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:43:01] Nikki Villagomez: So I will say that the main, one of the main themes that came out of this that was surprising to me is that. When changing a font, it is very often that I have seen that they put the word on an angle.

[00:43:15] So even the image on the cover where it says Colonial is good, right, right. And the word good is at a slight angle that seems to be very successful if used correctly. And now actually the Mildred Johns is also at an angle. Um, and so [00:43:30] I, I am not an angle person. I’m definitely like you. I do not like type on a curve.

[00:43:35] But there are many examples in this book where when the change of font is paired with putting it smaller and at an angle where it is done very well. And so that’s something I would never have done that I’m, I now more open to try from writing this book. That’s 

[00:43:50] diane: cool. And so, and there are, um, I don’t remember what you call them, but it was like the little tiles and like Go [00:44:00] Signs.

[00:44:00] The Go sign Entryways Uhhuh, yes. Entryways, 

[00:44:02] Nikki Villagomez: the 

[00:44:03] diane: tile entryways. And I think that those are like, so, um. I don’t know. I don’t know a lot of people who do those now, you know? Oh yeah. It seems like a very, oh, we don’t do that anymore. ’cause somebody else is gonna be in the store after Mildred, you know? And, um, but then she lives on because, or, or even where the entryway changes, like the door changes now it’s parked on the street and part not, you know, part of [00:44:30] it’s inside.

[00:44:30] I think that’s kind of interesting, um, that we need to maybe think about, um, if, if the, the owners changed, how would this affect the entryway into the building? Or if they stopped using this door, if they moved the door or the windows. How would this, if we are putting something in the concrete or on the ground, how does that, or even in a store, right?

[00:44:56] Mm-Hmm. Um, my sister owned a men’s clothing [00:45:00] store in, um, Raleigh for a few years in. They did a, um, bleach concrete stain or something, you know, I mean, obviously you could just, I guess, bleach the whole thing out again and be okay. But that was kind of a commitment to, um, if any, because it was the logo and it was really big in the middle of the, the floor.

[00:45:24] So the owners of that retail space have to be thinking. They’re gonna [00:45:30] have, they’re gonna have to cover that up. You know, if it’s like, if you’re, if you’re renting and you’re like, I wanna paint this Walgreen and your, your landlord’s like, well just make sure it’s this beige when you get done. Right. It’s kind of like that in the Mildred stuff.

[00:45:44] We love it now because we get to see some old things in Mm-Hmm. But I don’t know if that is as, um, if maybe landlords don’t let us do as much like that. Maybe now. I don’t know. It, those were some of the things. I really love [00:46:00] those and I don’t see them very much. And I, 

[00:46:03] Nikki Villagomez: if a, if a business moves into a building that’s a national historic landmark, they have to keep it, they have to refurbish it.

[00:46:10] If it doesn’t have that protection or designation, they can just paint over it or rip it up. 

[00:46:16] diane: Mm. But I think it, it, so say it’s not historic, somebody’s just hoping that they’ll be historic. Yes. I think that new landlords aren’t as open. For someone to do that to the floor or, [00:46:30] you know what I mean? Mm-Hmm.

[00:46:30] Yeah, I agree. It’s too much work. Yeah. And it would take money to take it up, I guess. Right. Um, why do you think font pairings are so difficult for a lot of people? 

[00:46:44] Nikki Villagomez: I think it’s hard to understand how to grasp pairing two different, two different things together in a way where they both compliment each other and communicate a message at the same time.

[00:46:56] Um, it’s hard. It’s very hard. And it’s one of [00:47:00] those things, like I said, if it’s becomes intuitive to you and you finally get it, it’s very hard to explain it. It’s like brushing your teeth. How do you brush your teeth every day? I don’t know. I doesn’t brush my teeth. Um, so it was very challenging to write this book because it is, it is hard to explain it.

[00:47:14] Um. But I think by showing examples, it made it easier. Yeah. Um, and then people who read the book, they can form their own opinion. Maybe you disagree with me and that would be great. That’s fine. Yeah. Okay. So, 

[00:47:27] diane: um, so did you [00:47:30] have any tips? So this to me is one of the really neat things about, um, analyzing other people’s stuff.

[00:47:37] And I always feel like a lot of designers come with opinions, but I think we need to be able to communicate what works and what doesn’t and why. ’cause it could be that it just doesn’t work for, for me, but I may not be the, the ideal customer for that, um, whatever it was. But the um, what are some unexpected conversation [00:48:00] starters, um, that have come out of some of these talks when you’re talking about font pairings?

[00:48:08] Nikki Villagomez: Well, um, I start these talks next week. Oh. Um, so next week is my first road show with this book. Um, so I don’t know yet, and I’m excited to have those conversations. Um, but I know for me some of the conversations that have come out, um, in my past [00:48:30] is, is, you know, why, why do certain typefaces tend to pair more successfully together than others?

[00:48:37] Um, why in certain regions of our country, like for example, Las Vegas, they can get away with the big, bold flashing, neon signs where that would not work. In downtown Muncie, Indiana where I just was last week, um, their signs are very different. And so, um, trying to understand the [00:49:00] differences between what works regionally and what works on paper is also very different.

[00:49:05] diane: Okay. Alright, so let’s, let’s, I want you to be able to share how people can get it. Can you share that slide one more time? Oh, sure. And then, um, the last four digits of the Venmo. So you can Venmo or you can email her at Nikki I-K-K-I-V-I-L-L-A-G-O-M-E z@gmail.com. That’s, [00:49:30] uh, and you can, or you can Venmo at Nikki Villa Gomez.

[00:49:36] Um, and then you need to email, can you, your address? 

[00:49:40] Nikki Villagomez: Pardon? Can you see my screen? 

[00:49:42] diane: Yes, I can see your screen. So you can get both books for $50? Yeah. Um, or you can I, since I already have the other one, I just needed the new one. Yeah. Um, $35 and the books are gonna arrive via U-P-S-U-S-P-S, yeah. Uh, U [00:50:00] Postal Service in five to seven business days.

[00:50:02] So. For if they Venmo you. But I think that on, is it on the blog there’s a PayPal? Because I think, yes. Okay. So let me add that in. So you can do, you can do Venmo or you Venmo’s 

[00:50:16] Nikki Villagomez: preferred, or you can go to my blog, which is nikki villagomez.wordpress.com and you’ll see on the right hand side, you can purchase the books from there as well.

[00:50:26] Okay. And I’m gonna, I connect through PayPal. 

[00:50:28] diane: Okay. So, [00:50:30] and that, um, the blog is Nikki with two Ks, um, got NIKI got that’s right. B-I-L-L-A-G-O-M-E z.wordpress.com. And the reason I’m spelling it is so that if anybody’s listening on their phone, just know you don’t have to write this down while you’re driving.

[00:50:51] You can just, um, click it. Uh, it’s at the top of, um. Wherever you’re listening, it will be the, uh, top [00:51:00] links, but if you’re on YouTube, it’ll also be the top links as well. But, um, Venmo, the last four digits is 4 4, 9 6. Correct. If they need it, yes. If they need it. Okay. Um, so how many images did you have to choose from, and how many did you have to cut when you were working on this?

[00:51:25] Like, I always feel like I have more images than I need, and then, yeah, [00:51:30] so I probably 

[00:51:30] Nikki Villagomez: had over a thousand. Easily over a thou ea probably more than that. Um, I was able to do a first pass through, um, pretty quickly if they didn’t include two typefaces. So those automatically were out. Um, and then I started grouping them in folders by the chapter.

[00:51:48] So I had a manhole cover folder, a go sign folder, and started putting ’em in there. And then from there, um, I had mult, I have multiple pictures of each sign too. And so I had to figure out which sign was the [00:52:00] best one to use for the book. Um, and so it just, that became a process as well of going through the pictures and, and curating them.

[00:52:08] But, um, like I mentioned, it was really important to me that I didn’t include any pictures from my first book. So these are all new pictures, with the exception of two. Um, they’re, they’re all new. They’re all new pictures. Were 

[00:52:19] diane: some of them still taken a long time ago? You just didn’t use ’em in the first book?

[00:52:24] Yes. Okay. That’s right. So this is still the 2011 on you’ve been collecting? Yes. 

[00:52:29] Nikki Villagomez: [00:52:30] Yeah, I’d say the majority of ’em though are, are fairly new, fairly recent. 

[00:52:34] diane: So you’re still out there tuning pictures doing this. Mm-Hmm. So you may not know if there’s another book, but maybe there’ll be something in the wings that’ll, um, bring you back maybe in.

[00:52:48] So, um, one thing we had talked about was just this, um, and maybe it’s just that we’re women and we’re always trying to make sure everybody’s okay. And, um, having an opinion [00:53:00] can, um, sometimes bite us in the butt. Especially as a leader, you’re, you know, the creative director, you’re trying to make sure every, um, that people are getting along.

[00:53:11] So sometimes it can be hard to take that stand. Yes. And I think that that was an important part for you. Yes. Um, just as a human of saying, I’m gonna put my opinion out there. Um, I know you spoke about it a little bit. Was there anything, just ’cause this is more of a personal. Outcome from [00:53:30] this, do you feel like, you know what, I did it.

[00:53:34] I may not. How do, how do you feel from after having done that? 

[00:53:40] Nikki Villagomez: It was definitely therapeutic, I would say. Um, it was very hard to put it in writing. Um, I promised myself I would not use ai. Um, it is very easy to use ai. We use AI quite a bit at work for social posts and things like that. And it is very, very tempting, especially with writing not being natural for me.[00:54:00] 

[00:54:00] However, I promised myself I wasn’t gonna use AI to, for any of this book. It was all gonna be a hundred percent me. Um, but it, it is hard because I think also being from the south, you don’t wanna come, you know, it’s just like upbringing. You don’t wanna come across as being too forceful with opinion or anything, whatever, all that stuff.

[00:54:17] But I’m, I’m pretty opinionated in this book, but the whole, and I talk about it in that last page of the reflections that. While I’m opinionated. For, for me, it’s important that you form your own opinions [00:54:30] too as you’re looking at this and figure out if it works for you, why, why is it working for you and use that in your own work.

[00:54:37] Yeah, I 

[00:54:37] diane: think, I think, um, we don’t all have to agree. Yeah. Um, you, you have to let me have my opinions and I have to let you have your opinions. That’s the only thing we really need to agree on. But, um, but, and you know, I think that some people will [00:55:00] say certain things are right and then. It’s just about proof.

[00:55:04] Like if you prove it to me, I had a student, we are doing something, and they were like, no, it’s in here. It’s in these, uh, brand style guides. I said, prove it to me. Show me. ’cause that’s all I want. I, I don’t wanna do something wrong. But otherwise I’m like, no, I think you can move the logo over here. And they’re like, no.

[00:55:23] It said you couldn’t. And I’m like, show me. Yeah. And I just think sometimes we’re, um, too afraid [00:55:30] to change our mind and to admit that we’re wrong. Um. Or say, you know what? I did this wrong for so many years. I used to write y’all Y apostrophe, LLI do not know. And I remember I was in Denver and my friend Debbie was like, Diane, it’s y apostrophe a l.

[00:55:50] She was the editor. And I was like, oh. She’s like, you are doing Y. It’s like you all, Diane, you’re, but if you do it 

[00:55:59] Nikki Villagomez: long enough, it [00:56:00] becomes correct. 

[00:56:01] diane: That’s, yeah. Right. That, but, and that is where it is in mobile. The, a lot of yahoos. Yeah. Um, but I think those are things that I want, I wanna be told. Correct.

[00:56:12] You know, having to do it. But those are, those are the things that I think people are like, well, I don’t wanna tell you, or I’m doing it different. I’m doing it my way. Because I think that’s right. You know, some things, it doesn’t really matter. Maybe about the apostrophe [00:56:30] or about the comma, it doesn’t, or about the why or who knows.

[00:56:33] But then there are some things that. You’re spelling it wrong or you’re saying it wrong, and I wanna say it correct, and I might not know how to, I might have to practice a whole lot. So I, I really love that you were able to take that and as a, uh, born Southern nerd, that’s a woman that’s has an opinion.

[00:56:53] It is hard, I think, sometimes to just, uh, put it out there. But I think this is so ballsy to do, [00:57:00] uh, a book on your own. I mean, all, I mean, it’s beautiful. It’s a, the images are incredible. And anyway, I hope people get it. It’s definitely worth it. And I like both of them. So I would, I would get both of them, but they’re really nice pair to me.

[00:57:21] Um, and I hope there’s a third sometime because I, I enjoy it. Um, but I wanna make sure everybody knows. So, uh, Nikki [00:57:30] vilaGomez@gmail.com. Com Mm-Hmm. And then your blog is. Nikki villagomez.wordpress.com. And on Instagram, this is where it’s a little dis different and it’s all in the chat and it’s all at the top wherever you are.

[00:57:43] Um, instagram.com/nikki NI, kki iCore VZ and that’s it. So those are the ways for people to get in touch with you. What at the here with two minutes left, what is next? Is there another book in the [00:58:00] Wings? Can you imagine another one? I 

[00:58:02] Nikki Villagomez: cannot. I cannot, especially since this one is just hot off the press, but I have learned You never say never because you never know.

[00:58:11] So next is really just touring, doing talks on this. Yes. So I had just gonna continue my, my speaking engagements that I’m so fortunate to be able to do and travel the country and, um, take this book along with me and, um, and sell them as I 

[00:58:28] diane: go. So your normal, [00:58:30] what you’re normally speaking up to or about is not necessarily font pairings, correct?

[00:58:35] Um, it is. 

[00:58:37] Nikki Villagomez: What about the signs that are local to the city I’m presenting in? So no two talks are ever alike. So next week I’m going to Fargo, North Dakota and presenting on the city signs that are in Fargo. And then I drive rent a car and drive the next day to Sioux Falls. And I’m giving a presentation to their chapter, um, about the signs in Sioux Falls.

[00:58:57] And then I So you’ve done a lot of pre-research and then do you go [00:59:00] out and take signs? No, no. I, no, no. I do the research ahead of time. Okay. And then I present it while I’m there and I’m there for such a short amount of time. Um, and then I’m going to Phoenix and, uh, presenting on the signs in Phoenix. And then I finish out the fall in, um, Cheyenne, Wyoming, which has been a city I have been trying to get to for, I.

[00:59:20] 14 years now. And so I’m so excited to go there. Oh, that’s awesome. 

[00:59:24] diane: So awesome. Yeah. Well, Nikki, thank you so much for doing this and I hope you guys will [00:59:30] check out her book and or books and enjoy just if you like signs or you like old things, you’re gonna just love, just get some napkins for right next to your mouth while you’re, I just, and the colors are really good.

[00:59:45] I was, I was really impressed with the Yeah. Um, printing I made. Great. I’m gonna take this to a client tomorrow, um, and show them, uh, hopefully as mix ’em as a possible printer. Yeah, they did a great job. [01:00:00] Yeah, they did a great job. And, and 75 books is more doable financially than a thousand or I can’t do a thousand.

[01:00:09] There’s no way. And we talked a little bit about doing like on um, Amazon where it’s print on demand and you decided not to do that because why? 

[01:00:20] Nikki Villagomez: Um, I think that one, I wasn’t able to do the horizontal layout. It had to be like a novel form and I had already laid out the book and it was [01:00:30] done, and I’m not about to redo the book.

[01:00:32] So that wasn’t, that wasn’t 

[01:00:34] diane: an option for me. Well that’s good. Well, I’m excited for all those people and for, for you to be able to go to Cheyenne and I hope that you have an awesome fall sharing this. And then you would also do a talk on or bring in about font pairings. You could do something probably for sure.

[01:00:54] I appreciate you and next week I am wrapping up the summer art party. We will still [01:01:00] have two more summer art parties, um, which is something I’ve done just in the summer, Nikki, just so you know. Um, but if you wanna join, you can always join and um, it’s free and we just get together and talk about the art we’ve done and things that have inspired us.

[01:01:14] And, um, it’s on Tuesday, so we have next Wednesday. I’m doing my kind of wrap up of what I got out of it and what I made and what I planned to do. I guess it’s a hold my feet to the fire, kind of a, uh, talk [01:01:30] so you get a rapid recharge with just me next week. But Nikki, thank you so much for today. Thanks Diane.