Product Design Defined with Gabriella Freda

[00:00:00] diane: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of, I was about to say design recharge. It used to be called design recharge and, but it has for quite a few years, about four years it’s been creatives ignite. And so I am excited to have my new friend Gabriella here. Gabriella is a product designer. This is part of the product design series and what I’ve noticed is that everybody has a new, everybody has a different definition for product designer and I actually [00:00:30] think that that is really interesting and really cool because now it opens things up.

[00:00:35] So you came, Gabriella, I’m excited to have you, you’re in the San Francisco area. I got connected to you because of a mutual friend that we have a Jessie McNeese and, you are gonna talk about your personal experience into product design. And I think everybody has really cool stories and I love hearing people’s stories and how they get to where they.

[00:00:58] And what [00:01:00] it teaches us. And I think you’ll, your story will inspire other people just to be, curious and creative and try to make things better because I think that’s kind of what your story is. So, Gabrielle, tell us a little bit who you are, where you are, and what you do now. Like, what’s your title, of, for the job that you do now, and, and then we’re gonna go back in time.

[00:01:23] And that was the way back machine. That was what that was. I, it was very clear. Yeah, I, I, I figured you’d [00:01:30] know exactly what that was. and then just that way we can kind of get an idea of you’re setting the stage and then I’m just gonna bombard you with a whole bunch of questions that are about product design.

[00:01:40] Great. 

[00:01:40] Gabriella Freda: That sounds great. yeah, so as Diane mentioned, my name is Gabriella and I am live in Walnut Creek, which is, about 45 minutes outside of San Francisco. And I have, I’m a senior product designer, at Bento Box. 

[00:01:56] diane: Okay, so Bento Box does what, what do they do? [00:02:00] 

[00:02:00] Gabriella Freda: Yes. So Bento Box, is it, we’re we’re expanding out our, our current, offering, but for right now, kind of the bread and butter of the product is to build websites for restaurants.

[00:02:14] And so my focus has been quite different depending on like, the teams that I’ve been on. but essentially like you have a, like a front end for people who are like diners and for restaurant owners who are gonna go in and like, [00:02:30] you know, need to, look at what their menu looks like and have all the pictures of the food and everything up front.

[00:02:36] And then we have like our backend, which isn’t like a dev backend, but just like a normal backend, for, restaurant owners to come in and like, change a menu or update pricing or like, include pictures. And then what I’ve mostly been focused on, is like our core team and our integrations. And then.

[00:02:56] Also I’ve worked on like data and analytics. So looking at like, [00:03:00] how many covers do you have, coming in, for that day. Like, like covers, what does that mean? How many covers? So it’s like the number of like seat seating and tables and Oh, okay. Yeah. So, and then also like, you know, how much, how much sales did you do that day, that week, that month, year over year, Thanksgiving, the previous year to this year?

[00:03:21] Just really like getting a really strong sense of how your restaurant is doing and performing. And, we’re, we’re slowly improving, like getting benchmarking and seeing like [00:03:30] how you compared to other restaurants around there. Like it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a big, it’s a big, project to kind of build out data and analytics.

[00:03:37] And I’ll talk a little bit about that later. But that’s a really fun part. But that is not 

[00:03:42] diane: where you started. No. So I really want you to tell them where you started. Okay. And so, you went to college. Yes. Yes. And you studied? 

[00:03:54] Gabriella Freda: Yes. So I went to, I went to Wellesley College, it’s right outside of Boston.

[00:03:59] And [00:04:00] I studied, I got a degree in psychology. In developmental psychology, like working with kids, which has, it does, it does 

[00:04:07] diane: actually relate. It does, does relate. 

[00:04:10] Gabriella Freda: It does relate to design in a lot of ways. Yes, that is, that is correct. 

[00:04:14] diane: But it doesn’t necessarily, you don’t think I’m g you thought maybe you were gonna do what, what was, what did you think you were gonna do?

[00:04:22] Gabriella Freda: I was going to be a grief counselor for children. Okay. Okay. And I did a [00:04:30] summer camp as a counselor down in Santa Cruz, a grief camp. And it was, it was very, very intense. And I was like, okay, I don’t think I have the brain space to be able to do this every day. But, but I still like, love working with kids and, I am just a of an ante to a lot of, a lot of people. 

[00:04:55] diane: Okay. So then, so you decide not to do that. You graduate, did you go on and [00:05:00] do anything in master’s or did you go straight to try to work in, in, in corporate world 

[00:05:06] Gabriella Freda: somewhere? So I really wanted to see if, like, psychology was for me. And so I figured out that it wasn’t like the, the clinical approach probably wasn’t for me, but maybe like the research would be interesting.

[00:05:19] So I ended up going and working at a psychology lab, mostly a developmental psychology lab at uc, Santa Cruz. working, doing like, [00:05:30] we, we did a, it was like how children for a certain age, like when do they help, when do they harm? I wrote a, I didn’t write a book. I’m a co-author on a book on that. and so that was.

[00:05:45] That that was a really like fun like two years. And then was, were you analyzing, 

[00:05:50] diane: like watching, like seeing how they interacted? So this is exactly what kind of you do with product design, but you Right, because you get to [00:06:00] see how people are working. I was almost like, oh no, did I just put my foot in my mouth?

[00:06:04] Is this not, because this is kind of what we do. Like you just, were doing it with kids and somehow I don’t know how, and I can’t wait to hear that. How you got from that to do working corporate training. 

[00:06:20] Gabriella Freda: Yeah, it was, it was quite a, it was quite a jump. I ended up coming back home and finding a, a small startup and just kind of [00:06:30] like trying out some roles there.

[00:06:33] And it was small. So you sort of wore a lot of hats. Lots of hats. Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:36] diane: Yeah. 

[00:06:36] Gabriella Freda: So I fell into what would be determined as like customer success or customer support in like a broader. Like tech world. and so I did that. So what would I always say? 

[00:06:47] diane: Yeah. So I always try to make it so that my mom would know what we were talking about.

[00:06:52] Like you already said dev, and I know my mom would be like, I don’t know what dev is. So like, so customer support, it would be [00:07:00] old school. We might call it like customer service in a way. Or customer. Yeah. Like, but because you were doing training, you were helping them with the product so that they could use it more successfully.

[00:07:13] So that’s why you were calling it customer success. It wasn’t like, hi, hats at and t how can I help you with your bill? It’s not that kind of customer service. Right, right, right, right. Different in that way. But it was, you were really trying to help that customer and a lot of customers, use the [00:07:30] product, whatever it was that they were using, right.

[00:07:33] In a way that was 

[00:07:34] Gabriella Freda: helpful. That’s a good way, that’s a good way to put it. ’cause if, if you’re not like in tech, it doesn’t make sense. And even I didn’t know what the difference was before I started and it really, it really comes down to like you are setting the customer up to work with the product in the way they need to, in the way they want to and helping them like be successful.

[00:07:56] And then that sort of sets the stage for if they [00:08:00] wanna buy any more products or if, you know, we identify needs that they might have and then like direct it to sales or bring in someone else, like a solutions consultant who comes in and like, works with them on technical stuff to then, make sure that like, use case, whatever is being met.

[00:08:15] So we’re really there to make sure that they’re like successful in the use of their product. 

[00:08:20] diane: And, and when you’re talking about product, or even if you’re thinking about, this may be a really bad analogy and you can tell me, you can be like [00:08:30] Gabriella, Gabrielle would be like Diane, that was terrible. Okay, but think about like, there are Legos, right?

[00:08:36] There’s all these Legos and lots of people can make lots of different things outta Legos. The same Legos you could make, I don’t know. ’cause I wasn’t very good with Legos, but, maybe you make a hospital and then with the same Legos you make a car and then the same Legos you make a house. And these are different things.

[00:08:51] So that’s success. The hospital is success for one person. Exactly. The car is success for one person and different [00:09:00] customers are gonna have different success, their outcomes or whatever. Yeah. and you were deep in this, you were in, you were training. And I, we, in design, whether it’s in product design or graphic design or web design, we have to deal with people using our tool or our, even if it’s a map.

[00:09:22] If you made a map, if it is not successful, if you cannot get them from this star to this star, right. Like we need that to happen. Yeah. [00:09:30] and if you are. You don’t have this kind of design background, but you’re like, Hey, we’re supposed to take them from A to C and they can’t even find B. You know, like they are lost.

[00:09:44] You are thinking. And how long had you been working in like customer success, where you were like, Hmm, I think I have some ideas? It was about three years. Okay. So, but yeah. Did you have inklings, at what [00:10:00] point in those three years you like, ’cause at, at some point you’re still 

[00:10:03] Gabriella Freda: learning, you know, but you’re definitely learning in the beginning.

[00:10:06] Yeah, I think, I think maybe, maybe about like two, two and a half years in, it probably took me about six months or more to transition. I would say maybe, maybe a full year. but I just, yeah, I mean, I, I, customers, customers would come with these like very complicated use cases, which. [00:10:30] Like our product could handle like some of, but not necessarily like all of it.

[00:10:36] diane: They wanted to make the death star, but they didn’t have all the right Legos. Right. I love that analogy. Actually. They would have to have different Legos to have the full 

[00:10:45] Gabriella Freda: death star or 

[00:10:46] diane: Right, 

[00:10:47] Gabriella Freda: right, right. And like, this is something that I thought about a lot when I was like, preparing for this. Like, customers will always surprise you and they’ll always use a product differently than how anyone expects it.

[00:10:59] They will always [00:11:00] break things and that’s good. Right. And I think what’s, what’s really, why, why is 

[00:11:04] diane: that good? It, I agree. It is good. But why, why would that be good? It’s, 

[00:11:07] Gabriella Freda: it’s just like, it’s really good because it’s like people don’t, people think of things so differently and it’s really like how the human mind and how the human brain like looks at different things.

[00:11:23] Differently. Basically, you want a lot of people involved if you’re making a design decision, because you might have a very, like, [00:11:30] specific opinion because of your background and your training and like who you’ve talked to, but there’s gonna be someone out there that’s gonna use it in a, in a way that you’ve never even expected.

[00:11:40] I always think about 

[00:11:40] diane: Frank Lloyd Wright. Do you know anything about that? architect, he was really pretty short, right? He was like, I, I didn’t know that. He wasn’t much taller than me. So I always think about my really tall friends would be sitting in some of Frank Lloyd Wright’s furniture. It would fit me fine, but they would be like their, you know, their knees would be up like this.[00:12:00] 

[00:12:00] And so yes. Can’t have one, piece of furniture that’s gonna be for everybody, right? There has to be this, I mean, you want it to fit them perfectly, whatever the, the product or the, you want them to be able to. Make the Lego. I don’t know why I was on the Star Wars Death Star. I don’t know. but those are, it’s, if you can kind of think, well, why wouldn’t you want everybody to just do it [00:12:30] the same way?

[00:12:30] Well, everybody doesn’t fit the same. Like Exactly. I can’t reach the same physically, I can’t reach physically. Yeah. Like, as somebody else. But it also may be like you’re talking about when you were working with little kids, they break things too, right? They use a tool in a different way and you’re like, wow, I didn’t even think we could do this.

[00:12:52] But it now, it gives you another tool 

[00:12:54] Gabriella Freda: for you to be able to use, I think. Exactly. And one thing I was gonna add to that is like, it, it [00:13:00] ultimately helps everybody when you design for like, like accessibility is a really big part of design right now, and it’s a really big topic. And one thing that I remember is like, just subtitles.

[00:13:12] Like subtitles were prob, you know, created for people who were maybe deaf or hard of hearing, but like. I, I don’t understand half the time what people are saying on tv. You know, it’s like, it’s so, it’s great to have like, it, it helps everyone ultimately. And there’s a really good book, I have it here, it’s called Design of Everyday Things, and it’s [00:13:30] like the founder of Design, Don Norman, and Norman and Nielsen and Norman have like a, a group where they do a lot of design training and they’re kind of like the starters of, of UX design.

[00:13:41] but they just talk about like when things are designed well, 

[00:13:45] diane: like 

[00:13:45] Gabriella Freda: how you just don’t even notice and how it’s like a total seamless thing. And when things are designed poorly, like the cover image is of a teapot with the handle and the spout in the same direction. Mm. So it’s like those [00:14:00] little things.

[00:14:01] And I think that’s why like Apple’s so popular. And I know we’re going to like a whole different area, but I think that’s why Apple’s so popular is because it’s so seamless and so easy. You open a box, it’s like three steps and all of a sudden you’re set up. Yeah. And like the, there’s another book called Don’t Make Me Think, by Steven Craig.

[00:14:19] Yeah, Craig. I have it. Yeah. And it’s like, that’s it. Like you wanna design products that like Exactly. There you go. You got it. They’re like, I [00:14:30] can’t see myself. So I don’t know if I, you put it up, but I, I think, I think that’s what, what’s, what’s interesting, so I think when you talk to a lot of different customers, you start to hear all those different ways that they use it and then their specific, like pain points and why the way that you’ve designed it does not work for them.

[00:14:49] but one more thing is like, it is a balance, you know, I think one of the hard parts is like, do you design, like this is why you don’t design for just like one person. Like you don’t design for just one company because [00:15:00] a lot of people will, you know, use it. Use it differently, but then it’s like, well, when do you stop?

[00:15:05] Like everybody’s gonna want something more too. So usually it’s like eight to 10 and you just kind of go with that. because after that it’s like no longer useful and you just like do your best. 

[00:15:17] diane: Okay. So, so where, so you’re there and you’re working in customer success and you’re hearing so many different things.

[00:15:26] And then what was your job? Your job was to guide people, [00:15:30] but what happened when they came to you with something that you didn’t have an answer and then you would go back to what team would you go to to try to get some of those things fixed? 

[00:15:42] Gabriella Freda: So, that’s a great question because that’s when I started realizing that UX was a thing, ’cause I’d never heard of it before that.

[00:15:47] So 

[00:15:48] diane: UX is user experience. User experience. Explain what user experience is. 

[00:15:53] Gabriella Freda: Yes. Okay. So user experience is how someone. Thinks through [00:16:00] like a product and like uses like an individual product. So I always give an example of like Amazon, like if you go to the search bar on Amazon or search bar on anything, like somebody’s thought that through of like what happens when you click, like where does this search bar live, first of all?

[00:16:16] And then what happens when you click into it? And then what happens when you type? And then once you type and you get a dropdown, a dropdown too. Someone thought of that. Like what happens when you click on something in the dropdown and then where does it take you and what else does it link you to? so it’s [00:16:30] really like how a user moves through a product and you, you moves through like a flow within a product, 

[00:16:36] diane: which in a flow would be just the kind of the journey of the Yes.

[00:16:40] It’s like step one. Now step two. Now step three step. So if you were doing a flow of a grocery store, physical grocery store, you would go, you would tell them, here are the five items I want you to go buy. Right? You would give them some rando items and then they would go buy it and you would be tracking you as the [00:17:00] product designer who were, the psychologists are like, okay, we’re seeing them.

[00:17:04] We’re they’re getting their, they decided to go to the carrots first and not last. We thought they would do this first. 

[00:17:10] Gabriella Freda: Right? Like, well, they get the cart right. They get the cart, some of them get a cart, maybe some of them don’t. Why is that Some has five items and then, right. Why do you would go to Exactly.

[00:17:21] That’s trying to understand how people move through it and why. And 

[00:17:27] diane: decisions like, right, they told me to get [00:17:30] carrots. Do I get a bag of carrots? Mm-hmm. Do I get those little carrots mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That are already peeled? Do like, is this a test? Like I’m sure some people are like, people always think it’s a test.

[00:17:39] You’re like, no, I just wanna see 

[00:17:40] Gabriella Freda: how you 

[00:17:41] diane: Right. But I think this is what you do. And this is, as a psychologist, this is amazing that you have those, that knowledge that we as designers don’t have. So you then go to these, taking it back to we’re the, [00:18:00] way back machine here. We’re going back, so we’re going and you are like going to talk to, is it a designer that you would go and talk to to try to get something fixed or adjusted?

[00:18:12] Gabriella Freda: So that is a more complex question than you would think. And this sort of goes into like how. Design and product sit within a company. Okay. If maybe I’ll jump into that please, that would be great. Okay. So as a designer, [00:18:30] usually from what I’ve seen, you are sort of part of two teams. One of them is part of like the product org as a whole, and product is mostly responsible.

[00:18:39] So, or organization, 

[00:18:40] diane: man, you are full of the, we’re just giving them, it’ll be like a tech is quiz slate. So many. So Amy Lyon, Amy says, this is why I’m glad I studied psychology before I turned to design because it was super helpful. I agree. I actually think this is a great way and I, this is one of the reasons I wanted to have [00:19:00] Gabriella on because I think this is an unusual hack, but oh my gosh.

[00:19:05] It makes you have a superpower that we’re like, how did you know that? Or what? And it, it’s like you did it. Like it just, it’s a really good. I don’t know. Jet fuel for your stuff. 

[00:19:22] Gabriella Freda: Well, I think too, like it’s getting more popular. Like I have a book also called 100 Things Every Designer Needs To Know About People.

[00:19:29] I have that [00:19:30] book too. It’s great because it talks about like, what do people see when they look at a page? Like what colors draw their eyes, what do they like? It uses, I think like neurological, studies. Yeah. Right. Not just for UI design. Like, I think it uses like neurological studies to explain like why people see it.

[00:19:51] Just like about the, about the human brain and how we like see red or blue differently or you know, if you’re colorblind, what do you see instead [00:20:00] and. All, all of this stuff. and I think too, what’s interesting, it’s like very similar to like our, like our optical vision. Do you remember that? The YouTube video that came out a long time ago.

[00:20:10] I watched this in a psych class where you watch a group of people bouncing a basketball. Have you seen this? No, 

[00:20:16] diane: I haven’t seen this. 

[00:20:17] Gabriella Freda: It’s a really good one. I’m gonna spoil it for anybody who hasn’t seen it. Okay, we’ll go ahead. You can spoil it. Okay. But it’s, you count the number of times they passed the basketball.

[00:20:25] And so we’re all busy counting how many times they passed the basketball. And at the end the [00:20:30] teacher’s like, professor’s like, Hey, how many times? And everyone’s like, 11. And they’re like, did you see the bear that walked through? And everyone’s like, what? No. And you rewind it and there’s someone in a bear costume that walks across the screen and nobody’s seen it because we’re also focused on counting how many times you pass the basketball.

[00:20:49] Oh. And that always stuck with me. ’cause it’s like, even though it’s right in front of your face, you’re not necessarily gonna see it. 

[00:20:55] diane: Yeah. Well, and I think sometimes things are really [00:21:00] obvious and you think, how would somebody miss this? But they’re so focused on doing, getting the carrots and getting the toilet paper or whatever, they didn’t even notice something that, especially for kids, if you had something, you were putting them in scenarios and you wanted to make sure that they don’t get in the, you know, white van with the creeper person.

[00:21:21] You know, like, you’re like, what if he gave you 10 bags of Skittles? Well, for sure I’ll give the van you. [00:21:30] No, there is no answer ever. You should ever get in the van. Right. And the book was a hundred things every designer Should 

[00:21:37] Gabriella Freda: yeah. Needs to know about people. Needs to know about people by when, when, I don’t actually know how to pronounce that.

[00:21:43] Sorry. I’ll put 

[00:21:44] diane: it in the, these old, they, I’ll put ’em in the show links. but I do have that one at home. yeah, that’s a good one. Okay, so, so take me back to your, so you said it was it, the organization is bigger than just [00:22:00] designer 

[00:22:01] Gabriella Freda: product. Right? Right, right, right. So I, what I was getting at in that long-winded thing was that when you’re in customer success, who you go to, to ask if something can be built is product.

[00:22:13] Okay. So product designers work within a team of product managers and engineers. And the product manager is the person that is responsible for the roadmap. So responsible for what happens and when it happens. So they decide [00:22:30] the priority of projects that the designer and the engineers are gonna work on.

[00:22:34] So they are the ones that are responsible. So as a customer success manager, I’d go to them and say, Hey, we really like this. I’ve had fif whoever, how many customers have talked to me about this one thing and they really want it. Is this possible that you can build it and you bring it forward in your roadmap?

[00:22:51] And if they can’t, then you would work with like a solutions consultant or an architect, which is someone that knows how to code [00:23:00] and can understand the technical use case for whatever the customer is asking for. And then they can go ahead and like build it on top of our product without product, like putting it on their roadmap, if that makes sense.

[00:23:15] diane: But because you’re hearing it over and over, a lot of people are either hitting a wall and it’s causing a problem or they’re saying It would be really great if we could do this. And I’ve seen products that I’ve, that, I mean [00:23:30] that I’ve really, software I guess I’m thinking about that I have subscription to and it didn’t do absolutely everything.

[00:23:38] But now. 10 years later, or seven years later, or five years now, they have this other option. They iterate. Yeah. It’s not just, can’t you just make this thing? It’s not quite that easy. Right. That’s where you’re bringing in. Engineers are gonna do things, they’re in the development process. You’re gonna have people in the front and the people doing the [00:24:00] design, what it’s gonna look like, how it’s gonna work.

[00:24:03] And you may say, we gotta have these buttons bigger. These are too, they’re too small. Or people can’t, you know, maybe it’s somebody that is, the type is too small and it’s for an older audience, or it’s for a kiosk, but it’s not, or it’s for little kids and it’s all at, I mean, in the bathroom, just ’cause I’m short.

[00:24:25] It’s like, who builds these, these, I’ve just washed my hands. Now you want me [00:24:30] to go like this? All the water is going down my sleeve. Right. This is poor user experience. Right. If I wanted the water to go down my sleeve, I would’ve just, put my hands. Wash your hole arm. Yeah. Right. But I think about that.

[00:24:45] That to me is, oh, well, a man who was tall, he put this on the wall and that was a good height for him. Again, this is a user experience. Probably women are gonna be a little bit shorter, so you could put those lower and it’s not gonna, I. [00:25:00] yeah, definitely not a DA compliant. I need to use only the, the ones for the people in wheelchairs.

[00:25:07] That’s how tall I am. I guess so. Which is absolutely fine, but I do think that people just don’t think about it and we’ve just, yeah, no, you’re right. Oh, it doesn’t matter. This is just how it is. But actually there’s a lot of things that we can customize. So once you decided, and you were, ’cause at some point you could have just kept doing this using just your [00:25:30] psychology for this and just for customer success, what happens that makes you say, I wanna, I think maybe I would like to try, 

[00:25:40] Gabriella Freda: so I think it was twofold.

[00:25:42] One, I was getting really frustrated to be honest. ’cause I was like, I am so sorry. I, I know we don’t have this, I don’t like, it’s not on the roadmap. I, I, I don’t know how I else to help. And the other thing was, I also thought it was. Well, [00:26:00] I also am like interested in creative stuff and I like that kind of thing.

[00:26:04] And also I was like, I can directly solve your problems if I just move into this field. I was, I was wrong. Because it is more complex and it’s not just a designer saying, this is happening, this is happening. It is a, is a big team and there’s a lot that goes into product development, that I didn’t know about before I, before I joined.

[00:26:23] But I did feel like I could be more empowered to help directly and work on like very [00:26:30] specific things that customers have asked. And in general, like we have ways of like having all of the like customer, Like, there’s like Zendesk and user testing. Like there’s all of these tools out there where people can say like, this is what I want.

[00:26:47] And then the product can go in and see like, okay, 200 people want this and only five people want this. We’re gonna prioritize, you know, that thing. But it’s definitely a balance between like, alright, customers are asking for us to improve this thing, [00:27:00] but we’ve also had a lot of requests for this new thing.

[00:27:02] So it’s a lot of just like prioritize, prioritize, prioritizing, and like re like shuffling things around. So it isn’t as easy as I thought, but I think ultimately I did feel like I could make a bigger difference. 

[00:27:17] diane: So sometimes I think when I hear about. People are just going on the whims of the customers.

[00:27:24] It can be very like, oh my gosh, when are we just gonna make a decision? Like, why do we always have [00:27:30] to be going and asking everybody? You do want to ask people ’cause you do want it to be broken so that it can be fixed so that it can’t ever be broke, broken, or supposedly right. or not broken as often, I guess.

[00:27:45] But I do think that there are some points where, somebody on the team says, okay, well this is what this team is gonna work on this thing. Yeah. We are skipping the, the queue. we’re 50 people have been asking for [00:28:00] this. It won’t take that long to do that. We’re gonna do this, but we’re gonna have this other team continue on this bigger, another asset or another component of this product or software or 

[00:28:16] Gabriella Freda: service or whatever.

[00:28:17] Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that’s a really good point. There’s a lot of like checks and balances and things to weigh and, you know, or is there a, is there a launch, or not a launch, like, [00:28:30] a conference coming up where we really wanna like, launch a new product and that, you know, or is it, are, are we trying to add this thing on because our, all of our competitors have it?

[00:28:42] it’s definitely a balance in terms of like what to build. So it’s not as simple as like, oh, 50 people want this. Right, right. 

[00:28:51] diane: Oops, did you freeze? We need to, we need to do it. I thought you froze for a second. Nope. Did I freeze? Yeah, but you’re better. You’re moving now. [00:29:00] Just keep moving a little bit. Just really slow moving.

[00:29:03] Okay. I’m sorry. Hold. No, no, I’m just kidding. You have to really do that. okay, so one of the questions I wanted to, see, because I did find this really interesting is how you started is then you, You start taking classes, at General Assem, general assembly. Was this, your company was paying for you to do this or you were doing this on the side?

[00:29:27] How did that work? And [00:29:30] and how frustrated did you get and how long did you take to take these classes? 

[00:29:36] Gabriella Freda: So it thi this sort of ties into how I transitioned over to design. so the company I worked at previously was called PagerDuty and, and they were very, very, very supportive, in transition. So I, I wasn’t the first there, there was people moving around.

[00:29:57] I wasn’t the first person who was in [00:30:00] support or success and moved to another position. but I worked with some amazing, I know it can be hard at some companies, so I know that I’m fairly lucky, ’cause I worked with an amazing HR rep and all my managers and a lot of people at the company were very supportive.

[00:30:15] And so. One of the, one of the things that made it possible was like, alright, you’re going to move over, if you can like take this [00:30:30] course. I worked with the company to sort of make an agreement to do about like a, about a 2080 split. So like 80% I worked with the customer success team and then 20% I worked with design.

[00:30:43] And during the time I was doing that, I was also taking evening classes at General Assembly on UX design. And again, the company was extremely supportive and they, covered a portion of the course, for me to then That’s cool. And then so then after I [00:31:00] completed that, there was a position. Yeah, it was amazing.

[00:31:03] It really was amazing. Yeah. So 

[00:31:05] diane: did you know about General Assembly or was that something you talked to some of the designers and you said how if I wanted to learn this and that’s what they recommended. 

[00:31:15] Gabriella Freda: I had looked around at like options and I, I think I did get recommendations from the designers that that was a really good one.

[00:31:25] And then it also happened to be pretty close to my work. So after work I could [00:31:30] just, like, this was before the pandemic, I could just pop over, or I, to the, to Montgomery, street area and, and the, the general assembly was right there. 

[00:31:45] diane: Yeah. ’cause in person is, can, especially if this is the first time and you’ve been, as a psychologist, you’ve been watching people or seeing things and that’s what you’ve been doing.

[00:31:56] Even with customer relations, you’ve been [00:32:00] talking with people. So I think that, you know, some people can do things, really well online, but. It, there is a point in UX I think that you kind of need to have some interaction. So, I know General Assembly is online, it, they have a online, component. You can take lots of classes just like that.

[00:32:23] But I think it’s really cool that you were able to do that in person. 

[00:32:28] Gabriella Freda: Yeah. It, it was nice to do it in person [00:32:30] just ’cause it was also so new. And then h how long did you take classes? I don’t recall how long it was. I think it was maybe, maybe it was like a 12 week course. Oh, okay. Something like that. One of the things that I had realized when I was taking the courses, a a lot of the things that you learn, and as a professor, you might be able to relate to this, I’m not sure, but a, a lot of the things you learn in [00:33:00] classes, like the ideal way of doing things and once you get on the job.

[00:33:06] It can be very different. And so training as well, like, oh, we need to do this full cycle research, plan. we don’t have time, so how can we, how can we really cut it down and make it as fast as possible? Or, we need to like, establish all of these metrics beforehand. Well, the product doesn’t exist, so there’s no metrics to [00:33:30] establish.

[00:33:31] it, you know, a lot of things just like what you do on the job versus like in class is very, is is very different. So it’s good to get like the base information, but then how it actually happens I think is different. 

[00:33:45] diane: So you’ve transitioned, you’re now in that role, there’s a, a new role that comes up and it’s a product designer.

[00:33:52] And so I think you probably were more powerful because you could, you have the psychology background, [00:34:00] you also have the customer, success background and. that would be the, when you were talking about like the things in school are like super ideal and there are things that don’t, you know, you don’t have three weeks to do this pro project or you don’t have this much time to do, you have to force this research into something, into a smaller amount of time.

[00:34:25] but sometimes there are certain things that you really shouldn’t, [00:34:30] scrimp on, I guess. And I would think doing those testing with your users and talking to your users, is one of the things that you really, you probably, especially as a psychologist, you’re gonna be pushing back and say, this is where we’re gonna get the good stuff.

[00:34:48] Like, you can’t make anything with the Legos that you have because you only have round ones or something. I don’t know. and I know sometimes we have to do with what we have, but, but what, [00:35:00] what were some things that you might be. People are like, well, we don’t have time for this. Like, what’s something that you really can’t get?

[00:35:11] I can’t make you a good sandwich if you don’t let me cook the chicken all the way. You know, it’s like, I promise you don’t wanna eat that sandwich if you’re not gonna let me cook it all the way. Like, we’ve got to cook it so that we can have something that isn’t gonna make people sick or hurt them or whatever.

[00:35:28] And and I feel [00:35:30] like sometimes people, especially in tech or in in design, they’re always, can’t you just get this faster? Can’t you just do this? You know, and you’re like, it takes time. Right. 

[00:35:42] Gabriella Freda: Yeah. That is a really, really great question. ’cause we run into that quite a lot and I think your, your, example of the sandwich was really good.

[00:35:53] There’s, there’s this, video I’ve seen where it’s like a side by side. on one side of [00:36:00] the video they show it’s like a 62nd. Superman or cat. And then the other side, it’s like a three hour and you can see the difference. So it’s like, well, if you give me this much time, this is what you’re gonna get versus this one.

[00:36:15] But I think in terms of the, the user, the user research stuff, you’re, you’re spot on. You, you cannot skimp on that because you’ll build a product that you don’t even know if anyone can use. let alone like delightful for people. [00:36:30] You have to make up for that because you’re still working at a, at a Yeah.

[00:36:34] Company that, you know needs to get stuff done is, and this is what’s really cool ’cause we come full circle, is you, if you don’t have time to schedule calls with customers because that can, that can take a while and it’s a lot of, is you go directly to the people that work with customers, which is customer success and customer support.

[00:36:54] And you end up doing quite a bit of internal interviews or you rely on, [00:37:00] like a CSAT school. What’s a Cs a? It’s cus basically it’s a customer satisfaction like scale. like from one to 10 you probably have gotten many of those, like, how was your service today? Blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. So a a lot of people will leave comments on those as well.

[00:37:18] And so that like gathering information that you might already have from a tool or from, like comments from that is, is a way to like get all of, having to spend a lot of time on [00:37:30] interviews and, reaching out and scheduling, especially if you don’t have a user research team that can be, difficult.

[00:37:37] So. Okay. End of, end of sentence 

[00:37:40] diane: me and you’ll both be doing the end. Okay. So, what is the most, and so how long have you been doing as working as a product designer now? 

[00:37:52] Gabriella Freda: I’ve been working as a product designer for almost five years now. Okay. 

[00:37:59] diane: What [00:38:00] has been, what, what for you is the most fun part of product design?

[00:38:07] Gabriella Freda: I really enjoyed thinking about this question. there are so many fun parts to product design. I think my, like, absolute favorite is honestly, and this is odd, but it’s at the start of a, of a project, [00:38:30] like getting a, getting a problem and then really, really diving deep into that problem and trying to understand like the how and the what and the why and what are all the current pain points.

[00:38:40] And especially it gets, it gets really juicy and it’s like, look, it takes me 16 clicks to do this and it’s super cumbersome and annoying and it’s very manual. And then, and then I get really excited. I’m like, oh, it’s just like a moment for organization and efficiency and simplification and find first.

[00:38:59] Someone to find [00:39:00] like that moment of delight instead of like drudgery. 

[00:39:03] diane: Since you’ve been working as a product designer for five, at least five years, what, how do you define, how would you define product design? 

[00:39:13] Gabriella Freda: It’s such a good question. I think I really would define it as some really thinking through a problem so thoroughly that no one else has to, and like by the time they get there, they’re not like, well, wait, how do I do this?[00:39:30] 

[00:39:30] Yeah. 

[00:39:31] diane: So they know where to go. It’s just seamless the direction of, what is next Yeah. Is, is super clear and obvious and, I, I’m, I love thinking through a problem. I love that, that part of it, because I do think so much of design is not always just making things pretty or making things, mm-hmm.

[00:39:57] Work right a certain way. It’s actually, well, [00:40:00] wouldn’t it be easier if we just ask them to do this on this screen? Like, why do we have to go three more steps in to be able to ask the same question? So I, I think it really thinking about efficiency sometimes. And also I love that you’ve said a lot of times delight, like, mm-hmm.

[00:40:21] So what has been something, and I this wasn’t, you can always use Rooster here, but what is something that you [00:40:30] have, either experienced and something that you’ve, maybe not worked on, but something that is a product that you use, that has been a delight? Or is there something that you’ve designed or you’ve worked with your team to make it so that it is such a delight for your customers?

[00:40:51] Gabriella Freda: I think so For me, like. My favorite app always to use. And I, this is not something that [00:41:00] many people might use ’cause it’s really like niche, but it’s Expensify. And essentially you just take a, like, take a picture of a receipt and submit it and you’re done. And versus like old ways of doing like expense reporting and like typing out everything.

[00:41:24] And they came up with this great way of like, you take a picture of a receipt, it [00:41:30] ha it uses some kind of tools within it to like pull out the necessary information you type in manually if it’s, you know, does it wrong. But essentially you take a picture and you don’t think about it again and you just like submit your report.

[00:41:43] Like it’s very, very clear how to get it done. and it’s like, I just, it’s very, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:41:51] diane: That is a great product. When it is when, and you said this earlier when it is almost like it’s invisible. We don’t even notice it. [00:42:00] I always think this is the one I use in class is that good design is like a good bra when it’s doing its job.

[00:42:09] You don’t notice it. Right. If you’re, if you got the cone bra on, like the Madonna cone bra, that’s all we’re focusing on. Oh, yes, yes. Is this crazy thing. And I don’t know like what I’m supposed to be doing with this. But I always think of, I have a illustration that I’ve done where it’s just a normal bra, but it’s on the outside [00:42:30] of my clothes instead of on the inside of my clothes.

[00:42:31] And then nobody’s listening to me that the classroom is, no one’s listening to me because I have my bra on the outside of my clothes. But it’s still doing its job, but it’s just doing it in a weird way. Right. But really what it should be seamless. It should be, yeah. this, I think about background music at a, in a restaurant or, if you’re, in a museum, the [00:43:00] background music should be in enhance, enhancing the experience, not taking away.

[00:43:05] If it’s too loud, I can’t talk to the person next to me, so then the, it’s not a good experience. Right. But those are all the things that, what else can we make it so that it is working, but we don’t even notice that it’s there and it’s doing this extra job or something. 

[00:43:23] Gabriella Freda: I like in the design of everyday things, Don Norman [00:43:30] mentions doors and how hard we all have a time with open, close push pull doors.

[00:43:37] And it’s because, and sometimes they don’t tell you which way it goes. 

[00:43:43] diane: Right, exactly. So, all right, I’m gonna ask you a question about teams because you don’t work alone, correct? Right, right. So what does a team normally look like? And if you’re working on a product and [00:44:00] you’re doing, some things are improvements or some things are complete new, you know, I don’t even know what you call those things, like extra things that aren’t there to begin with.

[00:44:12] Some are just improvements or some are just fixes. like how do you. How do those teams work and how many people are on there and what kind of people are on there? So 

[00:44:27] Gabriella Freda: this kind of goes back to what I was saying [00:44:30] in terms of there being like a product team. And under the product team they’ll have like people who are, product for vendor box.

[00:44:41] We have people in charge of analytics and online ordering and different, different things that, that we’re, that we’re working on. And then within that product, there’s the product manager who’s like the, there’s sort of like the, the lead person. They’re the one that makes, [00:45:00] like, they’re the one that makes sure that the product is successful.

[00:45:02] They just, with a designer, usually one and a team of engineers and the designer sort of sits between that kind of product team that builds the product. And then they sit on the design team itself. And the design team is like, there is like a really good place for feedback. And sometimes they’re, you know, they can be like the last word on design, sometimes not.

[00:45:29] but you’re [00:45:30] basically on two teams. ’cause you roll up to the design manager, but then you also, work directly with like a product team, individually. 

[00:45:38] diane: So like how many people you, you said lots of titles of people, but is it like six people, three people, 20 

[00:45:48] Gabriella Freda: people? You know, it, it really depends on the company.

[00:45:52] You, you can work with a very small, a small group. Usually there’s one product [00:46:00] manager, or I would say usually in my experience, there’s been one product manager, one designer, and then a handful of engineers. and the engineering manager. but there are some teams where you would have. maybe two designers on a team.

[00:46:17] I have not seen that before. That’s, that’s for like a much larger company. but all of the companies I’ve worked out, which are about mid-size, so I think my team is like a team of, like, my design team is like a design team of about six, and then [00:46:30] our product team is, yeah, about six or seven people. 

[00:46:35] diane: Amy says she has her, she works for a company that does a lot of, they have a lot of restaurants and spaces and she’s in Raleigh.

[00:46:44] And, she says she has seven Bento sites. So, hooray. You didn’t even know, but Oh, cool. She’s making some of your, that’s awesome. 

[00:46:54] Gabriella Freda: That’s right. I know. That’s awesome Fact. I might, yeah, I might ask you [00:47:00] questions. User testing. 

[00:47:03] diane: That’s awesome. Okay, so what type, what are some of the things that you tend to be responsible for as a product designer?

[00:47:13] Gabriella Freda: As a product designer, I have started seeing the problem space. So there’s a lot of like discovery and research that begins a, a project, and really getting into the weeds on, like nitty gritty talking to people, [00:47:30] getting some like flows together, of, you know, journey maps, how, like, how customers move through it today.

[00:47:40] so like a journey map would be like when they get to each step, like how are they feeling, what are their thinking? and then what are, you know, opportunities for improvement. Have that, and you have like full buy-in on, on a more of the like, designing phase. And I, I, I always start with like paper, [00:48:00] and pen just to do like, just wire framing because this is the time when you can just like mess up and have, you know, tons of different ideas and.

[00:48:12] I like the term ideating. Some people hate it ’cause it’s not technically a word, but I, I think it’s a, a good one in that you’re just sort of throwing ideas out there and just trying everything, that could possibly be, is when you bring in other teams. So you might bring in engineering and product, and [00:48:30] also people in like su success and support.

[00:48:32] And one thing we would do a lot at my previous company was an 11 star experience. my design manager was great and she would always, she would always, do this with people, which is basically like, okay, if you built this product, you know, what would it be if it was like two stars? Like, and, and people were not great with it.

[00:48:51] Okay. What about like, five? How far could you go? And then it makes you really think out of the box in terms of like, [00:49:00] maybe there’s features we would’ve considered if we didn’t think like way outside. Of where the possibilities are and then you like pair back, right? But that’s like a really, a good place to start.

[00:49:10] And then getting into like wire framing, which is, you might use like a very low fidelity. So this is like, you wouldn’t use your design system. So the design system is like, you have very specific buttons that look like any site you go to, you can see that. Like they use similar buttons in each, you know, place.

[00:49:29] And so you wouldn’t [00:49:30] use any of those for, like lo-fi because you’re, what you’re just trying to do is like get a flow out there. The understanding like how a user’s gonna move through this and then once like done testing with it and like talk to people, then you can move into like the more, higher phi and like prototyping phase.

[00:49:47] And when you get into that, again, you’re always like showing people, you’re always sharing your work, to customers doing like usability tests with things that you create to make sure that what you’re doing [00:50:00] is working and it isn’t like so off the wall. With a really solid base, you’re on the right track, so it’s not as crazy, but you’ll hear things like, I had no idea how, where to click on that or that dropdown did something I wasn’t expecting.

[00:50:12] And so it’s really helpful to get that as you go. And then, yeah, the last phase is, actually like prototyping everything out. And that’s when you, Figma has a really good, way to do this. And it’s just like, so anybody would like click through a website and so you just do that. so they can like try it out.

[00:50:29] And [00:50:30] then you hand it off to engineers and you prepare. I know we’re at time, sorry. And you prepare a whole document to hand off to engineers and then work with them on that. And then you’re never really done with a project. There’s always like iterations and there’s always future things. And, anyway, yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much the whole thing.

[00:50:44] diane: Okay. That’s good. So, I’m gonna ask you two more questions ’cause I know we’re out of time. okay. So what are some red flags? It could be, I’ve asked this question to almost everybody just because product [00:51:00] design does seem more. I don’t know. It means one thing to somebody and it means something. It means like really unicorny person over here.

[00:51:10] And it’s just, so what are some red flags if somebody’s trying to get into to this field or this subset of design? what are some red flags that you would, tell people to look out for? Of teams? Of companies or even just of the, [00:51:30] you know, the job writeup or something? 

[00:51:34] Gabriella Freda: Yeah. I think the two that I’ve seen, or the three that I’ve seen is when the two of them go in the same bucket is when designers are sort of asked to do things that may be like outside their purview.

[00:51:51] And I understand if it’s like a startup that’s different, but if it’s a larger company and, and designers are being asked to like also [00:52:00] code. And maybe also do like some product stuff. Like we can totally do all of that, but that’s gonna take away from all of the other time. so I’ve seen like full stack before as a thing.

[00:52:14] and that concerns me a little bit because then you just not spending as much time and maybe the other pieces of it that are like really part of your job. and I could code, but you don’t want me to like, it’s leave that to the, you know, developers. [00:52:30] and then the one other thing is I’ve seen when it says like pixel perfect designs and that just makes me think that it’s very focused on visual stuff, which of course is important.

[00:52:39] But if the UI is terrible, if the UX is terrible, like no UI is gonna make it better. Right? Right. Or if they haven’t, even if it’s super pretty. 

[00:52:50] diane: Or if they haven’t really figured out the problem and they’re not solving that problem, they’re just making the buttons look amazing or more 3D or, oh my [00:53:00] gosh, it doesn’t matter.

[00:53:01] Nobody’s gonna eat that. The banana is still yuck. The chicken is still chicken. Okay. So, I’ve talked to you about your, like your favorite part, but have you, do you have a proud achievement or a, something that you has been a favorite part project for you? And it could be a specific part of a project or what’s been that 

[00:53:26] Gabriella Freda: for you?

[00:53:27] Yeah, I wish I could show it, but it [00:53:30] hasn’t been released yet. but I would say working on building like a zero to one analytics and reporting suite was really probably one of my proudest things. it What does that mean, zero to one? Oh, it’s like, it doesn’t exist at all to like a full. product that Oh wow.

[00:53:49] We can like ship and mark, ship and market. Yeah. so the project began as like, just like a small improvement project. [00:54:00] Mm-hmm. Like, okay, we have, so we have it like a dashboard that exists, but it has like very few analytics stuff in it. And so we’re like, alright, well can we improve some of these things?

[00:54:11] Like visually can we move things around? Can we like stupid it up a little bit? and we just, were gonna like go ahead and move forward and make it like a really quick project. And I talked to my PM and I was like, listen, we don’t know how people use this today. We don’t really understand the, the pain points or the background.[00:54:30] 

[00:54:30] And so I. I really advocated for research on this one, and I’m really glad I did because it, it like pushed us to really understand what the issues were and it quickly became clear that like just updating the visuals wouldn’t drive value, because there wasn’t like any reporting necessarily behind what they were seeing.

[00:54:48] So people really wanted, we found out a lot more in depth reporting versus just those sort of higher level data that we surfaced. So it was a really validating moment, I think for me to get like [00:55:00] that internal, or that feedback and to like make a real change that would be valuable because then from there we kind of spun up a whole nother team, that was really gonna focus on like building out the data and analytics and like my PM and I worked on this whole like, phased approach that we would, that we would do and we shared it with the CEO and the VP of product and I.

[00:55:24] we were really able to sort of take that as like, Hey, this is actually really important, and kind of build a [00:55:30] new team and focus around it. And it, it, it has become like really central to our, to our product. 

[00:55:36] diane: That’s cool. Sounds like before if you were just making it visual it would, have you ever chewed root stripe gum?

[00:55:44] Do you know that Gum smells awesome. Yes. But it only chew it for like two seconds and it’s like, yeah. It’s like, then it gets gross is, yeah. It’s terrible. Like you want long lasting, you want the extra gum, you know, and I always think. Man, if they [00:56:00] could just put the, the whatever’s in the fruit stripe, but just let it last longer.

[00:56:05] Right. So it sounds like you got fruit stripe gum, but now it lasts a really long time with this new thing. I have a lot of really bad analogies. I love that one. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so the last question I’m gonna ask you is about remote, because this also could be, this is awesome, but it’s also not awesome ’cause you’re working with people and I need to [00:56:30] see what you’re seeing.

[00:56:30] And, and there’s, you’re, you work remote, correct? Yes. And everybody on your team works remote. Yeah. So, there are some challenges. When you were at your company before, was it remote or was it 

[00:56:48] Gabriella Freda: No. So I worked at that company until the pandemic and then it became remote as everybody became remote. Right.

[00:56:56] diane: Okay. But so. There are challenges when you [00:57:00] are doing this type of research or working, that you obviously have had to get over ’cause you’ve, you’ve, you’re working remote. but what, what are some of the challenges of working on a remote team and as part of a remote team, with other designers or 

[00:57:21] Gabriella Freda: when you’re on a product?

[00:57:24] I mean, I would say what just happened with us is very annoying. ’cause that definitely happens [00:57:30] when you’re trying to work through something and you have to stop and wait and try to come back and remember where you were. but I think like other things is like, it’s sometimes it’s just really nice to get in a room with someone and just be like, alright, take your sticky notes, put ’em on the board.

[00:57:46] Let’s like have ’em all there. Let’s talk about ’em, let’s take ’em off. You know, I. Well, it’s like point to this. And sometimes I do that as I’m like pointing to my designs on the computer and I’m like, wait a minute. Nobody can see that. So I [00:58:00] think ultimately though, like working remote has made, I personally love it and I, it’s, it’s made like meetings and times when I do work with people a lot more efficient.

[00:58:13] And, and because you have to be very intentional. You have to have a plan, you have to have an agenda. You only have a certain amount of time to go through it. You can’t find them like after work or whatever. Like there’s no water cooler talk. Like it has to happen now. So it’s a lot more [00:58:30] about like a conscious effort to set up meetings with people, make sure you’re talking to them like, or like often finding them and write everything down.

[00:58:38] I do a lot more documentation than I used to. which honestly I think is better for everybody. personally, and there’s a lot of tools out there that help you do it. Mm-hmm. Like leaving, you know, notes. So I, I think I, I think it ultimately is, is a help, but, you know, there can be drawbacks. 

[00:58:55] diane: Do you get to ever come together with the team in person, ever?[00:59:00] 

[00:59:01] Gabriella Freda: I have not personally met anyone in person. And it was funny ’cause at my last job too, my boss, she was in Toronto and I never got to meet her because the time that she was coming out was like, the pandemic had just like hit everything. And so it was like, Nope. Can’t come out. So I’m used to working with people I’ve never met in person.

[00:59:25] I am too. That’s funny because you, me 

[00:59:27] diane: too. I, so I do that as well and doesn’t, [00:59:30] so I think some people really had a problem with during the pandemic, and I think this would, roll over into people working remote, is they really don’t feel like they’re making a real connection. Like they’re, they. They just, it’s as good as it is, but I still would rather be sitting next to you, right?

[00:59:46] Mm-hmm. That’s what people would, would say, and I’m like, well, I feel like I’m next to you. Like, I feel like we’re having good, deep conversation, you know, even over zoom. Yeah. and I think it, it does, you have to really think about [01:00:00] you and, and what kind of engager you are. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like I do like to go and talk to people and see people, but I also really did really well just in front of my computer and, just doing my stuff there.

[01:00:17] But I think that, I know some companies, they’ll bring people together once a year and, just so that people have some, integration and they’re working together and I think there are [01:00:30] other things that we can’t manufacture, when we’re just on Zoom. But I, I appreciate you being patient with the internet while.

[01:00:39] We were listening, so, while it was all funky, I really, really appreciate it. So way to go. Anyway, you answered lots of questions. You have such a great, interesting way that you got to this and I think it’s such a challenge that you were like, you know what, I’m gonna help people and I’m gonna go [01:01:00] learn product or graphic design or coding or whatever, and all, all the things that you ux that you learned at, general assembly.

[01:01:08] And, and then I just, I just love that you brought this stuff that is your brain stuff in your, this is how people are and let’s keep listening and that you are advocating for your customers. I just love that. I absolutely love that. I will have to ask you more questions at a later [01:01:30] time. Okay. but I want everybody to be able to connect with you and they can connect with you on LinkedIn.

[01:01:36] And, this link will be the top link if you’re watching on YouTube or you’re listening on, wherever you get your podcast. or it’s right here in the chat for us today. And I’m just gonna read it so LinkedIn, everybody knows how to spell that. And it’s dot com slash IN slash Gabriella, G-A-B-R-I-E.

[01:01:59] [01:02:00] L-L-A-F-R-E-D-A. That’s how you get to her. And Amy already, she is like, she says she as a customer, she appre appreciates it too. And I think it’s nice that you were like, yeah, tell me what your feature request is that, and you are genuine about wanting to know because you want to make it better.

[01:02:25] You don’t wanna make it fruit stripe gum better, you wanna make it [01:02:30] extra, or I don’t know, other really good gum that doesn’t lose its flavor. Extras extra. Yeah. I guess my, my favorite. I think that’s what I, yeah. But anyway, this was a, it was a great conversation and I love the, this, you were the only psychologist that I had at, or even really as a researcher, you like, you started in another area and then you came to product design and you and I just think.

[01:02:58] It’s, [01:03:00] this, this, I love this. I love that there are other ways and it really is problem solving. You’re helping people, but you’re doing it visually, but you’re also thinking about all those steps and efficiency and not taking 16 ways to get the whatever, you know, the carrots Yeah. From the garden. I don’t know.

[01:03:22] But I really appreciate you taking the time and I’m sorry about the internet and we all deal [01:03:30] with it. 

[01:03:30] Gabriella Freda: It happens. I hope. I hope, I hope it didn’t make things too crazy. 

[01:03:34] diane: No, it was great. And I, so the two books, the design of Everyday Things Yeah. And then a hundred Things Every Designer Needs to Know.

[01:03:43] And then the, the Don’t make me Think. Yeah. Don’t make me think I have the Rocket Surgery Make Made Easy. I’ll add, I don’t know if you’ve had read this one. I haven’t read that other one. No. Interesting. So this, this was like, I have the first [01:04:00] one of these too, but Uhhuh, anyway, this is pretty good too.

[01:04:02] it’s very similar in mm-hmm. And it’s still Steve Craig, so all good. next week we have Kahan. I’m not gonna try to, say his last name. I’ll be practicing it for a week and, yeah, I’m not gonna try. but anyway, he is, he started as a web designer. so he has a more traditional kind of graphic design, but he [01:04:30] does product design.

[01:04:31] As well. And he, works freelance. So he has worked for companies and now he does a lot of freelance. And so everybody’s kind of coming at it from different places. And I just think it’s really cool because I think product design is bigger than what people think. And we know some things to maybe look out for, but also you just need to talk to people and see what they’re doing.

[01:04:55] And this might be something that’s interesting to you and maybe [01:05:00] use is you have some superpowers like Gabriella has that you’re able to bring in that you thought maybe you weren’t gonna be able to use. But I actually think that that’s the observer, the and just paying attention to how, what people are saying.

[01:05:17] And, and I, so I love that. I love that you came at it from the helping the customer. So, and having customer success. So. Next week we will have Kahan and then we will [01:05:30] take off for Thanksgiving. And then I believe we have two more episodes before the end of the year, and one is a product design well we have next week, and then, and he’s more of a product designer like Gabriella is.

[01:05:42] So more on the not making t-shirts kind of products. and then our last one will be that. And then we will, wrap it up at the end of the year. And then we will start off. And I’m, we are really working to get all our edits done before, so [01:06:00] we start on a good foot in January. We’re a little behind on our editing.

[01:06:04] So Gabriella, thank you so much for being an awesome guest and for sharing your wisdom and your story. I just love that you started out in psychology and what a great thing to be grief counselor, but man, that would be really too heavy. Oh, I don’t know if I could have done that even for a summer. So way to go for doing it for a whole summer.

[01:06:28] Gabriella Freda: thank you so much [01:06:30] Diane. This was really great. I appreciate you having me on and it was fun to talk about, so thank you so much. 

[01:06:35] diane: It’s just fun. You have a really cool, fun job and you didn’t even know, but Amy Lyons is one of your customers. Reach out to me. 

[01:06:42] Gabriella Freda: Amy, let’s talk. 

[01:06:43] diane: So Amy’s been coming to Creatives Ignite for over 10 years, so she comes when she came.

[01:06:50] I know when Amy’s on vacation, put it that way, like, I appreciate you anyway, and the other Amy Vega. I’m glad you’re here. So thank you guys for [01:07:00] coming and Gabriella, thank you. Thank you. And I’m sorry about the internet and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. See y’all next week.