Dylan Menges / Ideas on Fire

diane gibbs: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of design recharge. I’m your host diane gibbs, and I’m joined as funny, to be back after so many weeks away. Hey mom, my mom’s here.  this is episode 353 and Dylan Menges is back. And he’s going to be talking to us about some new stuff .

[00:00:18] Dylan, I want you to give them a little bit of background,  and when you started your business.

[00:00:22]Dylan Menges: [00:00:22] So I’m the guy that gets struck by lightning and likes to make art. That’s the shortest possible version?  the slightly longer version is I’ve been a corporate advertising guy for a long time. And about five years ago, I. Miss making stuff. I missed it growing and creating because I was in corporate design leadership, which was lucrative and sometimes fun and always rewarding, always beneficial and always a good learning experience, but I just missed making.

[00:00:47] So I started Menges design about five years ago, or just a couple of weeks shy of our fifth anniversary. And I did that with, the encouragement of some great people. One of whom is listening today. Jeremy Slagle. Who said for years, dude, go solo. And I was like, Nope, no way. So I did. so Menges design primarily focuses on ideas, entity design.

[00:01:08]And once we initiated projects like that for a client, what comes out of that are a lot of different things. Logo marks. Wordmarks the signatures of those two things together. The identity system around that brand experience, which might include murals or illustration or lettering. So lots of little things can deliver from that.

[00:01:27] But identity design is our bread and butter, okay. So when, so five years are a little shy of five years, is that we said, okay. And then you explained already what you do for those businesses. But what is your ideal client look like? Cause so are you still doing big businesses or are you doing something different and are you still at all doing any advertising or is part of the brand the whole thing?

[00:01:50]Yeah, it’s primarily when I say identity design. I say that because it helps focus the conversation. On a single thing. And I’ve learned that the hard way. And again, this is part of inviting people into your life to speak into your life. I’m going to mention Jeremy probably a few more times in this podcasts, webcasts, but yeah.

[00:02:05]People like him who have said, Hey, here’s the thing that I see and how can we it’s that? And, so because of that, I’ve realized that identity design is the one thing that I do for them. And to your question, The them or the ideal client are people that value a couple of different things.

[00:02:21] The first thing they value is being different and you think, everybody wants to be different. And the reality is I think everybody does want to be unique and special and ultimately be loved for that. But in terms of a business focus, it’s hard for some people to see that as a real investment.

[00:02:36]So that’s the first thing is that they value being different. Print. And then the second thing is that they really value things that are handcrafted. And that’s where us being a small shop is really what separates us from the larger agencies. We don’t take a ton of projects every year and every one of them is special.

[00:02:51] that’s our ideal client.

[00:02:52]diane gibbs: [00:02:52] Okay. So there was somebody else that we talked about, there was also your ideal client, and I just want to make sure we mention it. Cause I think it’s so in alignment with you is that you like people who go against the flow, who maybe are in that corporate, but they’re really these lone Cowboys.

[00:03:06]do you remember us talking about

[00:03:07] that

[00:03:07]Dylan Menges: [00:03:07] now? I do. And so going back to your question a few minutes ago, are we still doing corporate? The answer is yes. And so between the corporate and between corporate and mom and pop shops and some of the stuff in between almost every single client that we have is exactly that they have that.

[00:03:21]I think it goes back to the, they want to be different  that parallels with the independent spirit, the lone Wolf. And, what’s fun about seeing that come to life in the last five years, is that in some of those corporate engagements, I’ve got people inside those corporate investors. Okay, look, I’ve got a budget, I’ve got this project and I want to come to you directly.

[00:03:40] I know you’re a small agency and that’s why I want to come to you because, I want to do something that I really can’t do in the broader scope of things. It’s a smaller focus and I want you to handle it in this. I’m like, great. Let’s do it. so it’s fun to be approached by those folks, but yeah, that’s the thread, it’s the lone Wolf, the independent, but is

[00:03:57] it because you’ve been part of, you were in the Marines and you also were in, you’ve been in corporate world, so they know, but you really stand on your own and you’re not going to go then take them down this path just to make sure.

[00:04:11]To spend their money,  You’re really looking at it. And you do come up with these crazy ideas. I sat next to you at greater South. when you’re in, you just drew the entire time, I’m taking notes and you’re just drawing and I’m like, I am just, I couldn’t even pay attention sometimes because I was just watching you draw.

[00:04:27]It was like my own four hour tutorial with Dylan. And he had an iPad before anybody else or way before me. And it was just amazing. And I love sitting next to you. And I was really glad I got to do that, it’s that was how you learn. And. I just think, because you’ve been in it, they feel a comradery with you and they know, what they’re going through.

[00:04:48]And I think that there’s, that’s, there’s something to that about how you’re able to understand what they’re going through, what the higher ups are going to ask. Do you know what,

[00:04:56] yeah, absolutely. one of the things that I, and I know we’re speaking to some designers here, probably a lot of designers and I think.

[00:05:02]This may be a good place to talk about this quickly is that I think it’s really important for designers, whether they go to school or not, that they take a job in some level of agency, whether it’s small, medium, or large, ideally medium to large, but I really think that’s important for people to do because it, you a unique perspective about.

[00:05:22]A lot of things about scope and structure and budgeting and timing. And, but what’s really important. Yeah. It gives you a really good picture into human dynamics. And I mean that in a good and a bad way, but you can learn. And from the experience that you can bring back to clients later on your own, if you choose to go on your own or other agency or whatever.

[00:05:39]I can’t encourage people enough. Too, let me just put this differently. I think the thing I would discourage anybody from is getting out of school or whether it’s high school or finishing a degree or whatever, and saying, I’m going to go on my own. I think it’s okay. Really risky maneuver because you don’t have experience with all those human dynamics.

[00:05:56]And for me having done that for so many years, it’s a huge part. Going back to what you said, Diane, it’s really a huge part, a benefit from me when I sit down with clients. Cause I, I know what those conversations are like is including when they get up ugly, I’ve been an ugly and it’s just the longterm experience that I can bring to clients now and say, I hear you, I can help you through that.

[00:06:17]And One of the other ways that comes into play now with the clients that I take is a couple of things. One, I don’t take fire jobs. I don’t take ’em meaning I don’t take it. Rush jobs.

[00:06:28] diane gibbs: [00:06:28] Nine one, one calls.

[00:06:30]Dylan Menges: [00:06:30] Yeah, I don’t do it. and I’m not trying to sound like I’m elite. I’ve just know from experience.

[00:06:34] Those are never worth it because I’ve done so many of them in the past. So that’s one criteria. The other criteria that I always hope for. And most of the time it’s true is I always want a single stakeholder in that project. And that goes back to the independent, the lone Wolf. That’s very easy for me to find.

[00:06:49] It seems like over and over, but I’ll ask folks, tell me about your stakeholders, who’s out there that we don’t, that we haven’t heard about yet. Tell me all of them. I want to understand who are the players here?  it’s just me. Okay. So far so good, five years running. I haven’t had any rogue, stakeholders to show up out of nowhere.

[00:07:04] like I have in the past and in my other agency life, but it’s a really important question to ask up front, simply because if there are rogue stakeholders in the mix, or if there are even known upfront multiple stakeholders, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 people, it’s, I’ll just say it’s often a train wreck somewhere in the process because you have way too many people.

[00:07:24]Way too many egos. We all have them, everybody trying to weigh in and feel like they’re heard, which is the most human thing of all. So it’s, it’s really refreshing. It’s a blessing to be able to be in the position I am now and say, I want a single stakeholder in that relationship.

[00:07:38]diane gibbs: [00:07:38] So I just want to bring up some, put, some people are sitting in the chat.

[00:07:41] Now I know Andre’s in Portugal,  he’s a South African originally. And Mark, Hardee’s also set that for again. He’s still living in South Africa and Durbin, which I have another friend I think in Durbin recently moved anyway, her name’s Emma.  but Andre worked in a whole nother industry,

[00:07:56]I don’t think he’ll care. If you do, you can just type rooster in the chat really fast Andre. He said, okay, it’s cool.  but he had another industry and then he came to design. He found it he’s always, he was making t-shirts. He did things like this. That w it wasn’t completely out of the scope, but what do you mean done professionally?

[00:08:12] I think sometimes we do something professionally, just like even you in the Marines, I’m sure you weren’t a designer in the Marines. Where are you? Okay. Oh, this was just wasted time or this is wasted. I finally found what I wanted to do, but actually, yeah. Andre learned a ton about people and talking to people and getting what he needed from people and negotiations.

[00:08:34] He learned so much, and now he is at a better place business wise because he understands business. And now it’s just some skills. To get, but he already has a lot of skills. Anyway, I’m just a lemon, Anya, Andre. And I think Robert, he said I’m from Miami. He said, I agree. I went the solar route a year out of college and felt like it set me back.

[00:08:54] I lacked the experience. It’s you don’t know what you don’t know. Anyway, the kid I talked to recently, she was like, Oh yeah, done it all. And I’m like, Oh, didn’t you just graduate from college? She’s yeah, I’ve done it all. And I’m like, What is all then? Cause I haven’t even done it all. And I’m 47. that’s the only thing job I’ve ever had, as a designer.

[00:09:11] Dylan starts teaching us… [00:09:11] Anyway, look, you got something to teach us. Don’t ya?

[00:09:14]Alright, you want to jump into your deck? I just wanted to make sure we got that out of the way of, and I have already written tons of notes already.

[00:09:21] how to have a single stakeholder? What would you say if somebody had six people you’d be like, I don’t think we can work together.

[00:09:26]Dylan Menges: [00:09:26] Yeah. So I have an answer for that.

[00:09:28]cause again, I’ve dealt with that in the past five years here with Mengeshow to have a single stakeholder [00:09:31] design and it’s simply that, I can pull up that job. I don’t have it on my deck, but easy to find the thing. If you go into my Instagram, it’s on there. It’s it’s a big Wallace has charge on it for AEP, which is a local power, big local power company.

[00:09:42]And in that case we had multiple stakeholders. And I knew that very early on before the proposal was even cooked, I asked the question and said, okay, thanks. It helps to know that. And so what I set as an expectation, that’s the important phrase here. I set the expectation that I’m looking forward to working with all of you guys and, even including some of the creative round tables that we’re going to do to get to the concept that we’re going to get on the wall.

[00:10:04]But ultimately I need to understand who is the final decision maker in this relationship? Because there needs to be one, please help me understand who that is and we’ll keep moving and I’ll get a proposal to you guys, and that’s who got the proposal. that’s just one way to handle it, but I can promise, those listening, who haven’t dealt with it, it’s a very,  it may be uncomfortable to ask that question, but it’s a very important question to ask.

[00:10:24] It’s an honest question, and it will save you so much headache down the road. If you just get those expectations set up front. Yeah.

[00:10:31] diane gibbs: [00:10:31] And sometimes it’s the accountant. That’s not even at the table, that’s gonna pull the plug cause they don’t want to spend the money on this and they have a, their own agenda.

[00:10:39]He needs to be in the room too, or she needs to be in the room.

[00:10:41]Dylan Menges: [00:10:41] Yeah. All right. And before I sound like the advice hound here, which Chris Do mentioned recently, the advice monster, I. Let me say it in front of me. And I share this stuff in  from two vantage points. This one is I have experienced a lot of these things painfully.

[00:10:52]but like you said, a few minutes ago, Diane, I’m always like learning,  my proposals are constantly changing. And and I’m grateful for that. I don’t want to get stuck in a rut like, here’s the proposal, love it. Or leave it. I’m like, no, I say it in my proposals. I consider these working documents.

[00:11:06] You guys, some things are pretty set. But there are things here that we can talk about before you sign this. So please reach out to me with questions, help me make this a better thing so that the relationship is good from day one,

[00:11:16]diane gibbs: [00:11:16] but you’re also coming in as somebody who’s had experience, there’s stuff left to learn.

[00:11:22]Yeah. But you also are willing to share your knowledge,

[00:11:26]which I think is also  goes to your heart. So thank you.

[00:11:29]But he’s gotten a new tool and he’s gonna show us this and share his screen and do his  presentation, not little.

[00:11:36]Dylan Menges: [00:11:36] It’s fairly brief. but this well he’s interested. What I’m using is a new beta call for an app called mhmm. That’s how it’s spelled M H M M. It’s an, like I said, it’s a beta, but the beta works really well. And if you guys are interested, look it up online.

[00:11:48]it, it allows you to work seamlessly with zoom and other streaming platforms to customize the presentation.

[00:11:53]diane gibbs: [00:11:53] seen promos word and Doc  (Reed) says, he’s been curious about, We have Portugal Bermuda, South Africa, whole bunch of places in the United States.

[00:12:04] I’m trying to just make sure Adrian is here. Hey, adrian’s also in Bermuda. Hey Mark. You and Adrian should be friends.

[00:12:10]Dylan Menges: [00:12:10] Okay. I think just for fun, we’ll go and set this to a star Wars mode.

[00:12:14] So here we go. Turn the opacity down a notch. I’m Princess Leia.

[00:12:18]diane gibbs: [00:12:18] I love it. You should have had buns.

[00:12:20] Dylan Menges: [00:12:20] I should have had my buns.

[00:12:21]really starts teaching here [00:12:21] I want to talk about ideas he is, and in a couple different ways, primarily how I get to ideas with what’s that approach look like. And I think you’ll see it’s remarkably straightforward and simple. again, the learning of a long time of doing this. And then I also want to show some examples so that it doesn’t just seem like a bunch of text on the screen.

[00:12:38]The first thing I want to tell you guys that I think is really important is that design schools have done this a disfavor,

[00:12:43]basically what I found in the last many years of doing this is that design schools have taught us to grab a piece of work and say, Oh, that’s a white piece of paper. That’s not showing up anyway. Then we hold something up and we go, this is my concept.

[00:12:54]And what I’ve found is that the unfortunate truth of that is that there’s no concept there. There’s a nice piece of this. It’s beautifully designed it, hopefully. And all the pendants of designer, all the boxes are checked, but there’s no idea behind the design. It’s just nice design and that’s not a weird.

[00:13:09] I see it even with, it’s a tangent restaurant. We’ll say we have, we have a restaurant concept and I go, okay, what’s the concept, especially if it, the neighborhood we’re going to open a pizza concept, I go, okay, what’s the concept with pizza?  is it, sometimes funky ingredient or the idea, or, is it served,  in a Wicker basket, by people dress like gnomes, that’d be fun.

[00:13:27] That’d be an interesting concept. No it’s pepperoni and cheese. And I think that’s it. That’s that? Okay. So technically it’s an idea, but let’s be honest. do we need another restaurant concept with pepperoni and cheese? I think you get my point. We just watered down the, not only water down the word, but we’re actually using the word incorrectly with, for presenting what we call a concept and there’s no idea behind it.

[00:13:47]we really have an obligation to step up, With art as in a way that’s going to serve our clients and out of course, serve the people that are seeing the things that we’re making beyond those clients.  I don’t mean to make it like a wag, your finger lecture here about that, but it’s, I think it’s really important that we as designers just understand and sell what we’re, I’ll accurately sell what we’re doing.

[00:14:07]Sometimes I will tell clients that, look, this is a design. here’s an example. Sometimes I do lettering pieces for folks, and it’s just a nice piece of lettering and I’m grateful to have that business, but the reality is there’s no concept behind it per se. There’s an appropriate style.

[00:14:22]That’s applied to it, in a tone that matches the, whatever the lettering is saying. And those things are critically important. I think. But there’s no idea behind it, per se.  I hope that makes sense.

[00:14:32] diane gibbs: [00:14:32] So if you’re talking about concept, you’re talking about more like a theme, something, what would be drawn out or it’s more conceptual, like you’re going off star Wars and it’s going to be that sort of theme because I know what you’re saying with concept like, Oh, here’s idea.

[00:14:45] One is really what they should be saying. Here’s my idea. And this is just, it’s a pizza shop. But it’s not, it doesn’t have a theme or really a conceptual underlying that’s throughout the whole thing.

[00:14:56]Dylan Menges: [00:14:56] Yeah. Tell you what I’m going to jump ahead. I’m going to show examples. that might be more helpful.

[00:14:59] here’s the thing that I did that is obviously the praise be here now. So I could have just done this as just lettering out the word be here now. And if it’s done in a nice. Cursive style like this or italic or something that feels nice. Cause it’s a nice thing to say. It’s a contemplated phrase be here now.

[00:15:15]And I did this because I was wrestling. I’m still always wrestling with the idea of being undistracted and focused in one place. However, there’s an idea here that said that. I said, I asked what if I did the type. Starting at the top of the beater, you can see it. What if that line never stopped? And this whole thing was one continuous line all the way around the design.

[00:15:39] that’s the visual idea that reinforces this idea of just staying focused in one thing. So again, I’m really simple. Here’s another one. I asked myself when I was doing this little, tight piece. And illustration thing. What, I could just, I could say goodbye summer in a typeface that felt like maybe it was sad or contemplated or something, but what if I took a cassette tape and the tape getting pulled out of the cassette tape, some of you are, have no idea what I’m talking about, but anyway, this is a throwback thing I did, but what if the cassette tape came out and spelled goodbye summer?

[00:16:10]And again, it’s all happens to be mostly one continuous line, but the essence of that, so again, a little extra concept or idea built into that instead of just pretty lettering.  another one, guys that know my work, might’ve seen this was a, illustration that ended up, being used for our making Midwest conference and then got picked up by French paper,  which I have a sample in front of me, but anyway, So again, I could have done a straight illustration of Draplin.

[00:16:31] A lot of people do it. They’re fun to do, but I thought what if you guys are catching that common phrase now with the hair of his beard, the word Draplin. So again, I added a little extra layer, a little visual concept to that beyond just a straight illustration. And then I thought, what if the words making Midwest the conference, he was speaking at?

[00:16:48]What if that kind of came across his shoulders and felt stocks of corn or grass or something, things come into the Midwest. And then one more layer. I thought, Draplin is really into this, the cosmos and I am too. And he’s always talking about the cosmos. And then I thought, what if we cut a portal through his hat is like a window into outer space.

[00:17:05]And then, did a little constellation of, Draplin design company, DDT with this little connected constellation, third layer of idea, and then a lot more fun. When you look at it, the benefit is you get the, you get this kind of steel, those layers, and you get to connect those dots. You, the user.

[00:17:20]And then you feel like smarty pants and that’s the fun part. there’s that value thing that comes into it. Okay. Another one. this was for high pokey here in Columbus, Ohio, and they already had the Ohio spelled out is O H a I for their high pokey name. Oh. And they asked me to do a longboard and I thought, okay.

[00:17:36]I could, again, I could just do some cool looking and design thing and that’d be okay. But what if we had an idea baked into it? The deal was well since they’re using raw fish. What would it look like? The chop fish, and then where the fish gets cut. Those become the O’s of Ohio. pretty straightforward.

[00:17:50]maybe grossest somebody out, but that’s the reality of what they make.  again, an extra layer of idea there that makes it more valuable to the viewer, to them as a client.  again, I’m going through these really fast, but, This was a wall I did last year. That’s my wife’s sitting there.

[00:18:03]So I was asked to do a wall. I had no parameters around what to do. I chose this wall because, I like painting and I like painting on incredibly difficult to paint stuff and I’m a freak. but anyway, this thing was extra challenging because of the surface, but it was also challenging because there’s a window, obviously.

[00:18:18] Obviously there’s a door over, you can’t see it. There’s a door where the E is. And I thought, what can I put on this wall? That would be simple, a hopeful uplifting message. And so I decided to do love and is that consent? No, it’s not. It’s just the word love, but I thought what if, Oh wait, so the other parameter, the other design challenge of the condition of this piece was.

[00:18:38]Where my wife is sitting. There’s a chair, there’s this metal chair bolted to the wall and it ain’t coming off. And I thought, okay. So what if I drew love so that as you sit in the chair, you’re cradled by the word love you’re cradled by the L so cradled by love kind of thing. Oh, okay. Oh, that’s fun. anyway, so adding that little extra layer into that stuff can really make things more visually interesting.

[00:18:58] And in this case, Physically engaging because you get to sit in the chair. If people, pictures of this, posted it on social and all that. so going back to the corporate stuff, this company is big corporate, they’re an energy company down in the Carolinas called Concentrix. And this was a case where a really cool guy inside the company came to me and said, Hey,  his name was Rick and Rick said, I’ve got this budget.

[00:19:17] I want to do this internal campaign. Can you help me develop a campaign from the identity? And then through some of the additional tactics that share the message? I said, sure. So in doing the identity, you’ll notice that if you can see it on screen, it’s probably really small, but good. Gentrix has a little lightning bolt in their, in their logo.

[00:19:32]So as I was drawing things, for the campaign, trying to figure out, okay, what’s the logo Mark look like. I did the logo. I’m sorry. The word Mark. No regrets for the campaign. Then customize that type a little bit. But when I was drawn that the logo Mark the, which became these two people, I thought, wait a second.

[00:19:47]What if there it is again, what if the lightning bolt shape could fit in there in between them as the negative space? And be the same lightning bolt that they use in their logo. So that’s what we did. so what you’re looking at are just some lockups where I’ve got the signature again, just to explain that nobody’s ever heard that, this is old school, but I find it really valuable for clients.

[00:20:06]For me that I con is the logo Mark. I call it the logo Mark, and I spell it all in one word and Apple tells me I’m spelling it wrong. And I don’t care. The logo. Mark is the icon, the graphic thing, the word Mark is the business name. Here’s a tip every single business in the world that I can think of needs a wordmark not every business needs a logo Mark, but if you can design both, that’s pretty fun.

[00:20:26]Those things locked up together are what I call the signature. And that’s not me making that up. It’s an old school term, but it still works. The signature are, can be, let me just jump ahead here. So the signature, here’s some other examples of how we use this thing. I want to get out of the way.

[00:20:37]so as you can see over there on the bottom, right? The signature is, again, the logo, Mark, the people in that circle or square, it doesn’t matter. The logo Mark with the word Mark. And then underneath that, you’ve got a couple examples of how that signature can incorporate maybe a tagline bringing safety all the way home, and then maybe a URL in that signature too.

[00:20:56] So anyway, all to say, there’s an idea of baked into this thing. And, that’s really important because when that user sees that and goes, Oh, wait a second. That’s the icon for,  And that’s the fun of it. You can give them that little reward and they find that little treasure.

[00:21:09]If that makes it sound really important, but they find that little thing and it’s fun. Okay. I’m going to blast them. Were these really get out of the way here?  these are all idea based identities. These are, I think it’s fair to say that you’re mostly, most of these are signatures, right? We’ve got to work on a logo Mark and a word Mark, and I think I’m not going to go through all of them.

[00:21:24]I’m just going to talk about a couple of them. One of my favorite ones from a manga. These are not all Menges designed to be clear. IRNS down here is really old work. but one of my favorite ones from a mega design project is, the Lumberg one above me. So you’ve got a logo Mark there with an interesting visual conceptually it’s about two horses.

[00:21:42]this is the artist and the designer. This is not my work. This is. I’m sorry, the concept wasn’t mine. Andrew, Lunberg already had that idea and he’d already painted that before. So what he asked me to do was he said, take my two horse concept and let’s make this a modern identity. You really clean this up.

[00:21:55]So I drew, after a lot of iterations, we developed this two horse icon in a very clean, modern style. And then underneath that made the word Mark. Both of those are conceptual. and the reason is if you look at Lundberg, you’ve got just like the horses. You have a mirror D and B, and I had to find a typeface that felt like it could do that, appropriately.

[00:22:14]So the DNBi mirror each other, just like the horse shapes mirror each other. And the other reality of this is the way that the way this is designed, that DNBi fit nicely into the negative space under the horse. But these two elements also work very well separately. The horse can live on the left side of the Lundberg type and it can live above it.

[00:22:30]So this is again, part of building a flexible identity system. Okay. I will go over the rest of these. I hope they’re. They should be, if I’m doing my job Fairly clear that there’s something conceptual about it. Like the hook of the fishing company for longer.  the L becomes the hook.  the dot of the I on beehive becomes the hole for the beehive where the bees go in amplifier, becomes personified, with this eyeball looking speaker, et cetera.

[00:22:51] Ohio GG is Ohio gravel grinders. It’s a bike group here at Ohio.  okay. so those are some samples of where I hope it’s more clear. Now when I say, do we need to do more than just make a nice design  let’s make stuff that. Has to dig a little deeper and rewards that person with something that’s visually conceptual in nature.

[00:23:09] So that there’s more value in that thing that we make for not only your client, but more importantly, the people on the end of this thing that see it.

[00:23:15]Okay.  maybe the next thing that jumped right into is how do we get there? how do I get people to come up with these ideas? this is so straightforward, but I gotta tell you there’s the catch cause you probably expect me to put that word up there, Oh, ask questions. Okay.

[00:23:29] Everybody says that  here’s the thing that I see that I think is really important for all of us to think about. You and I live in a culture that says we have to have a snappy answer within two seconds. For every time we’re approached with a question, all of us and I blame Google’s. We can all blame Google.

[00:23:44] It’s not our fault. Google’s fault. Fine. Okay. But seriously, that’s the culture you live in. You have to have an answer right now, and that’s a crazy place to live.  we can facilitate that tension because we have the power on and our phones respond and most of us have broadband and all that.

[00:23:58]It’s just not a healthy place for us to be. So we might put this up August word up here.  you can approach a client project and do a lot of free digging, thanks to Google about the client and things that they know or believe in values and all those kinds of things. But this asks. Part of it.

[00:24:13] This first layer is where you really start to lean into that person and show them that you truly care about them, that you have empathy for their situation, that you want to understand who they are. And it’s hard work it’s way harder than Googling, this, and that’s why we don’t do it. same here.

[00:24:28]I have to really work at this. And of course, layered with that is, something that’s even more difficult is listening. When you ask the question. How many of us ask questions and don’t really want to hear the answers I’ve been accused of this by a good friend of mine. Chris, who said to me years ago, when you asked me a question, I feel like you’ve already got the answer.

[00:24:45] You just want some confirmation.

[00:24:46]And he was right. So this is a talk all by itself. And I’m so glad I won’t stay there too long because I’ll get uncomfortable. And we don’t like to be uncomfortable, but Hey, seriously, this is a, this is the hardest part, that comes after the ask. So moving on from that, what I’m asking, these questions and listening for these answers.

[00:25:04] this is a question that it’s going to happen a lot at the beginning of the, why questions? Why do you guys do what you do for a living?  why did you start the company? And I don’t mean from a business sense. what was the spark, that it happened 20 years ago, the why questions and you have to truly put on,  where your empathy hat in a genuine way.

[00:25:21]Because otherwise you’re going to be that irritating child. Like mom. why? You’re just going to do a bunch of why’s and it’d be like, Oh boy, this guy’s irritating. So if you’re really actively listening to that person, the why questions will probably come pretty naturally. The more you do them because you’re listening.

[00:25:35] You’ll know what that next question is. You’ll be listening so well, that guy will say, ABC and D happen and you’ll see. But with that, because of this thing that you just said, and you’ll repeat it back to them. Why did that approach feel like the right thing to do for you? You hear I’m going again.

[00:25:50] There’s a whole separate talk. And Chris DOE, I mentioned before at the beginning, it does a great job of talking about these kind of conversations. I highly recommend listening to his stuff,  but why the why questions are really important. So once you get the why questions, you end up with a pretty good pile of things to sort out lots of pieces and parts.

[00:26:07]And if you have. A monstrous budget and you could do research and get really detailed information about, even more of the pieces and parts people and those kinds of things, which is a fantastic thing to do if you’ve got a budget for it. But if you don’t, you’re going to have a fairly finite pile of information.

[00:26:24] you’re going to have information about, Their business, their values, things that they like, maybe some visual direction, cause you’ve gone. you’ve bounced some of that stuff off of them. You’re going to have a lot of things to look at, and this is where you go to the next set of questions.

[00:26:35] But what if questions? And you’ve already heard me say that when I was looking at showing you some of my past work, but this, what if is so important for me to get to those weird and strange and sometimes yeah, really effective ideas you’re saying. Okay. I hear you. What if we did this? What if that, what if we took, and it looked like that.

[00:26:55] What if the lettering became similar to the object that the main object you’re trying to sell and it’s the only object you’re going to sell for the next 20 years because it’s pretzels or it’s fishing loser. I don’t know whatever, but the what ifs, just keep asking. what if we did this and the context around that too, is be playful with it.

[00:27:11]Don’t get locked into that business mentality. Like the thing I ask about has to have this business context or this framed in something that we’ve already talked about, be willing to be a little radical, maybe a little dangerous and rebellious and Steven Spilly. And again, playful with the court questions that you’re asking and the things you’re thinking about.

[00:27:28]The other thing that I would add to that, the what if questions in the context of being playful and open to new things? Is pleased bop using Instagram and Pinterest for those visual inspiration boards. If you’re looking at someone else’s imagination execution, you will never fully wash out and release your own imagination.

[00:27:49]I got to say that twice. If you’re staring at somebody else’s results. The results of their imagination. You will never flex the muscles of your own ever in the way that you really should. So you’ve got we, me too. We’ve got to stop looking at external spinach things as saying, I’m not thinking they’re all wrong.

[00:28:07]I’m just saying it’s not going to be the best you probably. And what Diane said about was an Andre who worked in a different field. That’s a really relevant point here. I draw from. Tons of travel experience and reading and looking at things that are not design related, that is form design, ultimately in the work that I do.

[00:28:25] It’s so critical. I can babble on about that, but, I’ll stop there. That’s the quick, that’s the briefest possible way. I think I could tell you how to approach getting two ideas. How I do it. Okay.

[00:28:36] diane gibbs: [00:28:36] Awesome. Is that your, can you stop your screen? Share?

[00:28:40]Dylan Menges: [00:28:40] Yeah. Enough of this stuff.

[00:28:41]diane gibbs: [00:28:41] I want to see you in non star Wars, if possible.

[00:28:44]Dylan Menges: [00:28:44] Star Wars and that’s camera ammo. Okay.

[00:28:47] diane gibbs: [00:28:47] Hurray, we got you back. That was great. Okay. So I took a lot of notes and I totally agree. It’s if you’re on a date and you just really want to talk about yourself, you’re probably not going to be a very good date and you’re probably not going to get a second date.

[00:28:59] So again, if you’re about somebody else, if you’re the designer and you’re trying to get to know somebody else, instead of you’re trying to sell them on you, you don’t have to sell them on you. You need to ask the questions to them so that they know you care. And Marie is here. He started my camp off and he talked about.

[00:29:14]You guys should be friends by the way you Mario. He said,

[00:29:18]Dylan Menges: [00:29:18] he, his,

[00:29:19] diane gibbs: [00:29:19] I can’t remember what the title was beginning at the beginning, but he said it was, it was open a full ha heart empty head or empty head anyway, whatever. I can’t remember. Exactly. Sorry. Oh, Mario, but that was the concept, right? It was the, that you come in with an empty, you don’t do the Google searches.

[00:29:36] Oh yeah. Full heart, empty head. Thank you, Jacob. And that you come in and you’re ready to ask the questions. You’re ready to love on them. And you have this full empathy ready to just ask and read them. Cause you need to read their body language. And I had a client yesterday who I met with and she’s are you just so sick of zoom?

[00:29:53] And I’m like, no, And I’m I guess, because this is it, this is how I’m feeling actually with people. So I am not sick of it. Like I am, I understand. I would like to be in person with people, but she lives in North Carolina. I’ve never, I’m not that I’m never going to North Carolina, but sister lives there, but I’m not going up there to meet with her anyway.

[00:30:11] So I would, we would always meet. And I said that to, I said, but you know what, Meagan, we would always be meeting. Like this she’s like you’re right. I think it’s just, we were so want to make sure that we’re communicating what we’re trying to get at. And I think us as designers, even, yeah, something like this, we have to be ready to just listen.

[00:30:30]And anyway, so now it’s my turn to listen to you more. Cause I got more questions I didn’t mean to ramble on. All right. So you talked about this already, but why do you think that you connect you personally, you Dylan, for your business, you connect with those lone Cowboys, the independent spirits and the people who are in those bigger businesses and the corporations that are going against the tide and how do those people find

[00:30:54] Dylan Menges: [00:30:54] you?

[00:30:54] I think the people that connect with me, they. They see the work and, they see there’s something, I don’t think people come to me and go, wow, let’s do something weird. I think the keyword is different. I think that’s really important.  they really do. Maybe here’s a better way to see it.

[00:31:07] And this is I’ve never done, pull research of clients as I probably should, but there’s a consistent thread on the conversations I’ve had, where they understand. That they are saturated with communication and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to compute that what I just said, we all, everybody listened to this, understands that.

[00:31:25]So it’s so important for the people that we work with. I’ll these conversations and what comes out of that as is again, another consistent thread of. Something. So basic as humans, they want to be seen and they want to be heard. And so my responsibility to them is to do everything I can to cut the clutter out of that visual communication that we’re building.

[00:31:44]be very purposeful about every single thing we make. I’ve said this for years to other designers. as I’ve mentored or hired and fired and all that to say, when you show me a design, you should be able to give me a rational, logical reason for every single decision on that page, everything, every space, every letter, every style of letter, every illustration choice, the composition space between things, all of that should have a reason behind it.

[00:32:08] And if you can’t give me that reason, then don’t show it to me. And it’s not like I’m being a super hard ball, but.  what it does is it not only helps sell the work through to clients.  again, we’re not just making, we’re not just designing things and saying, I think this is cool.

[00:32:21] Cool is irrelevant. When I show a client something, I want them to know why we did it. And I want them to understand that we’re doing everything we can to make sound logical design decisions for them. So that the thing that’s on that page or that screen. Is doing the most possible work to communicate the message as quickly and clearly as possible.

[00:32:40]I’m rambling there. your question,

[00:32:41]diane gibbs: [00:32:41] I love that. Dylan, with that, I run into this a lot in school. Yeah. Kids are like, I don’t want to tell you, I don’t know why I did it. I just did it. Cause I like it. And I’m like, that’s not going to reason you need to be analyze it. And it’s not because you don’t need to trust your gut. Like I totally trust Fabio. He totally could do whatever I, and I know he could do it, but I would love for him to be able to ease the client.

[00:33:04]In any of their apprehension or somebody else higher up bigger organization, you have to have reasons for things. And if it all goes together, just like the Draplin piece, you had all these pieces that went together, it makes it easier to sell, especially. Yeah. If it’s odd or if it’s different. Now it has a reason and it’s not just a gut.

[00:33:25] Trust me. It’s no, like I want to know, I know what’s in this sandwich because I’m allergic to shrimp. I’m not, but I don’t like shrimp, but yeah. like I w I want to know if I was because I don’t want somebody to be like, Oh, you love it. And I’m like, does it have Manet’s on it? I’m not gonna love it.

[00:33:41]Many’s touched it. I don’t want it. So it’s kinda no, don’t tell me just to eat something or to just love your idea and trust you. there’s still some apprehension, so it gives them a trust. It gives them really solid bridge foundation, metal bridge foundation, instead of a tight rope shaky bridge.

[00:33:59]Dylan Menges: [00:33:59] Yeah. I guess to be really clear here, I hope more clear. I did a traditional design background. Visual communication was what it was called from the local college here. And I really appreciate that instruction because I still use all that instruction. I know other people, again, I’ll speak about Jeremy Slagle and, Jeremy is, has a, is a master of teaching himself.

[00:34:18]And, looking for what those rules and there are rules. I think the thing that’s troubling for some folks is they think, it’s cool for you, but not for me. Or there’s really this very subjective approach to design. And I think that has really hurt our industry. I think the reality, I don’t think the reality is design has rules behind it.

[00:34:34] And there are, again, look, there’s a lot of things that are subjective about design, when we establish polar systems for people. And if they don’t, if there’s, I’m going to go off on a tangent here, it’s going to waste a bunch of time. But in most scenarios, we have every reason to apply sound design principles, to the things that we make.

[00:34:50]Objective the principles. That’s why we ask all the questions. The things that we deliver are answering the question is they’re solving the problem that’s been expressed by that business owner, by that whoever’s driving this thing. I’ll put it differently and it may be a little more harsh. I w I will not work with someone design-wise if they don’t understand the rules or if they’re, or if they’re unwilling to learn the rules and they’re in a mode of, what I do is, cool for me, but not for, I need to know that you understand the rules.

[00:35:16]The thing is about the rules is, and what’s fun about the rules. Believe it or not, as strict as I sound through all this is. Once you’ve heard this before, once you know the rules, then you know how to bring it. It’s the rules. That’s the fun part of being a designer is knowing where you can bend and you go, yeah, I know the spacing should be like this, but we’re going to go ahead and break that rule because it’s going to create something visual that will interrupt what somebody expects.

[00:35:37] I’m again, I’m just speaking off the cuff here, but, it’s re that’s why knowing the rules is so important. Thanks.

[00:35:41]diane gibbs: [00:35:41] So Paul has a couple of things I want to bring out pieces or is the reason. And Paul has his doctrine physics, and, but he left physics to be a designer. So I just love Paul. I love Paul story.

[00:35:53]So he says, or is the reason just to justification for what has already been learned by trial and error over the years? I definitely think that has to do with business and people and everything, but then he says, what I wonder is which comes first, the reason or the inspiration. Do you want to answer that one?

[00:36:08] Ooh, I know positive

[00:36:10]Dylan Menges: [00:36:10] wing and hammer, man.  it’s a great question. I don’t think there’s a fast answer to that which comes first, the reason or the inspiration.

[00:36:17]diane gibbs: [00:36:17] Don’t you think sometimes it’s you have to just be living. You have to be out doing and. Sometimes it’s going to be the inspiration and sometimes it’s going to be the reason, or you might have an idea a long time ago, but you haven’t put it to anything because you haven’t found the right shoe to fit.

[00:36:31]And then,

[00:36:32]Dylan Menges: [00:36:32] yeah. That’s a great question, Paul. I get here’s a one thing that comes to mind and maybe it may be better to ask a question back to Paul. when I hear you ask about, when I hear you use the word inspiration. I think about the word emotion, which I don’t think is the exact same thing. I think I’m throwing you off course there when I bring that up. But, let me just say it. I, when we design things for clients, I think it’s really important again, to know the rules, no one to break the rules, have this formal stuff in place that you can sell it through and go look, I’m going to tell you exactly why every single pixel is on that screen and why it’s, why it’s there or why it shouldn’t be there or whatever.

[00:37:03]Yeah. One of the hardest things we can do is then find the emotional angle to that thing. Maybe it’s the photograph that’s used or that the topography might, lend in the more emotional, softer tone it’s really necessary for this piece. in that stuff, part of the rule book, maybe, yes, you can apply rules to some of these things, but there’s this emotional thing a lot harder to grab.

[00:37:24]It’s really a slick snotty fish, And, so to be honest, that I think is actually the hardest part of the job for me is to get out of my own head, which is follow the rules, even want to know how to break them and ask myself two things. can I step back from designing something that’s going to appear fairly masculine.

[00:37:41] That’s just the fault being a male.  but it’s the thing that I struggle with. even what’s typographic illustration,  does this look at this piece? And I go, this is the thing that I could draw this way, but does the client need this too? we’re, we’ve been asking questions and answering questions and if I draw this in a very masculine way, it’s way off target.

[00:37:58]That’s just me starting me. So do I need to back off of that? And then with that, what ways can I deliver this with color, with style, with texture, a lack of texture with content that, with the words used,  that, bring more emotion into the piece, not just delivering on the rules of good designs, but what can we do to bend into that emotional ability that stops people?

[00:38:20]I’ll give you, I’ll give you an example that I, it’s going to be hard for me to say this without getting teary, but I’m going to tell you this quick story. One of the last things I did in corporate America, corporate advertising was a huge video shoot for a client and it was cancer related. So we had these patients come in.

[00:38:35]and, God, I can’t believe my tell a story. This is rough. All right. I’ll just tell it. So we had a lot of different patients come in. They were all survivors. And one of the patients that’s happened to be a mother and daughter who had both gone through chemo together. Okay.  so we’re doing this, we’re doing this video shoot.

[00:38:49] And at first we had a very strict script and I said, can we skip the script and just make it a little more organic in terms of the conversation that I, I’m the one asking questions on the video and not on screen, it’s just them. And so the only thing that we scripted between the mother and daughter.

[00:39:02]We filmed the daughter first. And we said, Hey to the daughter. We said, when your mom’s done,  when she, when you hear this question going around the back of the set, and as she answers it, just come up and give her a hug, Cause they were just so close and we wanted to just show that in the most natural way we could give your mom a hug.

[00:39:17] She goes, sure. I’d love to. And she does that and it says, Oh, it’s my cancer buddy. And she puts her arm, on her daughter. And we just lost it on the set. I don’t even want to tell the rest of the story, cause I’m not going to have to hold it together. it doesn’t end well, and that’s why it’s really hard to tell the story.

[00:39:30]the daughter, passed away. She got cancer again and, she passed away, a couple of years later. And, it was just a wrenching experience, because we’d, we’d had a relationship with these folks to make that piece. And yet, I guess what I’m trying to say to you guys is you can write scripts, you can do all these things that, play by the rules.

[00:39:47]And, yep. Sometimes when you, I don’t know how to say this and when you just let go of some of those rules and just try to keep things natural and try to let the human side of things come through. Some beautiful things can happen from that. And, Yeah, I’ll stop there, but maybe

[00:40:01] diane gibbs: [00:40:01] knowing when to be courageous and when to let down the rules, it’s just, like you said, you have to know the rules to break the rules.

[00:40:07]that sounds like an amazing piece. It does sound like it would have been hard, but I think it’s about,  that’s what you wanted to bring people in to their story so that they would give for cancer research so that they felt connected to those two ladies. Yeah.

[00:40:22]Dylan Menges: [00:40:22] Yeah. I’ll say this much.

[00:40:23] When, when the daughter was in hospice care, I went to see her and the mom was at the opposite end of the hallway. And, I walked in and she said, villain, his arms were out and Steve lost. I’m just standing there just losing it. And we were just making an ad, but. yeah, that human connection thing is just more powerful than we can put any sort of ad script too.

[00:40:42]diane gibbs: [00:40:42] It’s because you saw what their message was important. And because they felt seen and heard, she felt a connection and because what you’re doing made a difference and you are trying to make the world better in it. Wasn’t just.  it meant something. And I think that’s what we’re supposed to do.

[00:40:57] We’re not supposed to just be robots.

[00:40:59] Dylan Menges: [00:40:59] Right?

[00:41:00]diane gibbs: [00:41:00] Jason Carne has a question. I want to read it. It’s not a teary question. I know.

[00:41:04]Dylan Menges: [00:41:04] Okay. Good.

[00:41:05]diane gibbs: [00:41:05] Okay. No, it was great. I’m good. And I cried. I have tissues I’d hand on to you if we could do that. alright. So Jason says, what would you say about the design that was done with no real ruse rules in mind that ends up being iconic or successful primarily successful in air quotes, primarily because the feeling that it evokes, for example, the nevermind, the bollix,  art.

[00:41:25] For the sex pistols. Do you think it was just dumb luck or is there a bit of benefit of being naive to the rules sometimes?

[00:41:32]Dylan Menges: [00:41:32] Yeah. Great example. for those of you guys that don’t know what that is, the nevermind the Bolex cover was, a con truly iconic. And, it’s a great example. Music is such a great way to frame this conversation.

[00:41:42]I think when I think about that as an example and others like that in music, For me the, yeah, there’s a, there’s so much emotion and urgency and rawness in that execution that, that’s what they got. And I wonder know, I’m going to, I don’t know the history of that. Jason. I’d love to hear it, but I’m guessing that no, there were no research panels.

[00:42:00] There were no multiple stakeholders. That, that was a person just, there was a lot of passion and emotion that went into the creation, that thing, and it just rocked literally, in every right way, every piston firing on that thing. And Jason and Mike, am I even getting close to what you’re asking?

[00:42:15]diane gibbs: [00:42:15] So I did share on link. If you guys don’t know what the cover looks like, I shared it. So while we wait for Jason’s answer,  I’m gonna, so Hannah had a question that kind of goes with one of the questions at the very end is what inspires you. So she said, so where do you go for inspiration? again, think about somebody who’s in that corporate scene or they can’t get out.

[00:42:37] Nobody can travel now, right?

[00:42:39]Dylan Menges: [00:42:39] Cause you said you got some from traveling,

[00:42:41] diane gibbs: [00:42:41] but I think that there’s lots of other ways that you can find inspiration. What are some ways you do?

[00:42:46]Dylan Menges: [00:42:46] Yeah. two quick things to share. One is that I still get on my bicycle a lot, my wife and I ride bicycles a lot. and we walked together a lot.

[00:42:54] And as mundane as those two things might sound the advantage of that, especially walking or even running, which we do all three. The advantage is that you are at that slower pace. And so the exercise there, again, as mundane as it might sound the exercises to just be absurd around you. So it’s a simple question.

[00:43:11] You can ask yourself when I go for this walk, I’m going to find three things that I want to see. Three things that I haven’t seen before, assuming that you’re probably walking in your neighborhood or someplace you’ve been before. When I go on this ride, I just want to look for things I haven’t seen before.

[00:43:21] You will see them. I see houses around my neighborhood. I haven’t seen in six years cause I’m just looking a little bit harder. So that’s one way, the other way it’s my hands on perspective is to pick up some new material that you haven’t used before. And. That could be some medium. It could be, maybe you sport for some piece of equipment that you’ve never used before.

[00:43:39]Maybe it’s a laser cutter. Maybe it’s a, Jeremy Slagle and I, he turned me on a mess around with leather last year was a year before and he made some leather journals and we were playing around with that. but just getting your hands on a different material like that, maybe it’s as, again, as cliche as it sounds, maybe it’s a watercolor set, a cheap one.

[00:43:56]I don’t know, but I think there’s something really valuable to getting your hands into something that is a tactical textural, different unexpected, and just play with it. I think you’ll, I like to think you’re going to find some benefit to that. I know it’s been true for me. I play it quickly. This is how the business started for me.

[00:44:14]I was in my garage drawing on the walls.  and having so much fun, not thinking about what I was drawing. I was just drawing for growing sake. And I did this whole mural about the apocalypse and big foot and flying saucers and the end of the world. And my wife came out at a very late in the evening for realizing I hadn’t had dinner standing there and nothing but a pair of shorts hot summer night on a Friday night.

[00:44:34]And she started looking at my face and she knew, I guess the story I tell where I get all choked up, but something clicked that night. And it started to change my way of thinking about what I was going to do with the rest of my career.

[00:44:45]diane gibbs: [00:44:45] How long into, how long after that moment did you go out on your own?

[00:44:50]Dylan Menges: [00:44:50] About a year later? Yeah. Yeah. Again, mr. Former military rules guy started marching into the step, okay, emotional moment aside now, what do I do from a step standpoint, to get things in place, buy the URL, establish the LLC and all that stuff. I started putting those things in motion.

[00:45:04] And about a year later I made the joke.

[00:45:06]diane gibbs: [00:45:06] That’s cool. All right. So we haven’t answered here’s Jason and then Mark Bowden did a little bit more research so everybody can know the rest of the story. I feel like Paul Harvey hear people. Oh, so Jason says, yeah, it’s wrong in quotes in every way, but that’s also the term of it.

[00:45:20] But. He says in all caps, I don’t think they necessarily knew they were breaking the rules. I think it was out of necessity and necessity. And as you said, urgency, so while it’s sloppy, it matches the music perfectly and gives you a great idea of what you’re going to hear.  Mark says, I love this accord to their manager, Malcolm McLaren, which I love that he gave the whole thing.

[00:45:40] we came up with the ugliest cover. We could think of that in a sense. We’re going to attack the idea of super graphics I wanted to make ugliness

[00:45:48] Dylan Menges: [00:45:48] beautiful. Yeah. Another thing I think I would add to all that is that look at the amount of restraint. And this is another tenant that I think is so important, especially in the sea of noise that we are all in and there’s not.

[00:45:59] And when we’re designing things for people, we are. We are often in the mode of, I need to add this thing or the client will say, we really need to say this extra thing. And you realize that actually you don’t tell me one thing clearly, and that’s all we need to do with this exercise. That’s restraint and it’s hard, but if you can do it, you’re going to have pieces that are going to communicate a lot more clearly look, and you look at this cover for the bullocks or the sex pistols.

[00:46:20] And that is a ridiculous amount of restraint to three colors. And it also breaks rules, like tons of tight faces, not the two type face rule. It breaks all kinds of rules and it works great. And it’s crazy to pull. So I love it. It’s a great example because I’m glad Jason brought it up. Me

[00:46:35] diane gibbs: [00:46:35] too.

[00:46:35]All right. Dylan, we’re out of time and we’ve got no questions answered. So we’ll just have to have you back on to do a part two, although I loved what you talked about. And I think we had a good conversation. the questions are just. Know,  idea for us, but I did have some, I really wanted you to dig into, so maybe we’ll do a part two and we’ll put it on Patriots.

[00:46:54] So is that sound or we can just schedule another one maybe in December. anyway, I want to share, so you guys know how to follow Dylan and how to get in touch with Dylan. you can tell him if you want, while I put it in the chat.

[00:47:06]Dylan Menges: [00:47:06] Yeah. we are spending the next two weeks getting a new website up.

[00:47:09] Really? How many podcasts have I said that on in the last two years,  Menges.design is the website. If you go now don’t cause it sucks.  we’re going to change it. meanwhile, I’m on Instagram and, taking a break from that for a month, but Instagram is at Menges design, M E N G E S.

[00:47:24]diane gibbs: [00:47:24] And  it will also be underneath.

[00:47:26]So if you guys have any, you want to connect to them, that’s probably the best way is DM him there. Tell him what else? I will get the rest of these questions answered because I think that. It’s important, but I love what you said. So I love about the listening. I love about asking. I also love, I think you alluded to this in the beginning.

[00:47:46] You said ask, but know that you don’t have to know the answers. and also you don’t have to know the next question. You may have an idea of the questions you want to ask or some general questions, but it should be it’s really about this is where your people skills come in. And if you think that you, this isn’t your best, skill, how do you think you developed your people skills, Dylan,

[00:48:06]Dylan Menges: [00:48:06] the hard way?

[00:48:07]diane gibbs: [00:48:07] Like how, seriously?

[00:48:09]Dylan Menges: [00:48:09] I, I had good mentors that said to call me out on not listening well, Or I was in conversations and realizing I was, in a position to ask the right question, but I wasn’t listening carefully enough. And so I bungled the conversation or I bungled the interview.

[00:48:21]That’s how you learn the hard way. And that sucks, but that’s, either you grow, you’re either growing or dying and, that’s, you can come out of that and say, I’m going to do better or not. So do you

[00:48:30] think that you’ve had friendships or you’ve been. had mentors that really, that you had for longer periods of time that you were able to, they, you felt like they would call you out or hold your feet to the fire

[00:48:43]or?

[00:48:43]Yeah, I have, I’ve had a few people in my life and I would suggest to folks listening that if you can find a couple of three people in your life, if you have a spouse, Stitcher, that’s obviously, the number one, but then in addition to that, if you can find some people. That can objectively hang out with you and objectively say, I know you’re saying this, but I’m not really convinced that this may be the healthiest approach, whatever the issue is on people that are willing to speak into your life.

[00:49:07]And be honest with you about things, whether, design’s a great place to find that mentor, but also outside of that too, if you could find one person like that, And part of that is just being willing, obviously being willing to be vulnerable, and nobody likes that, but that’s part of the deal.

[00:49:22] It’s how you grow, whatever that

[00:49:23] diane gibbs: [00:49:23] worth. So I love that. So Hannah also has a question. Do you have any more, the good evil skateboard

[00:49:29] Dylan Menges: [00:49:29] decks? Yes. Hannah, we do actually. Yeah, we do. There’s I think I’ve got. Or that haven’t been purchased back here.

[00:49:34]diane gibbs: [00:49:34] How would she go about purchasing or just DM you on Instagram?

[00:49:37] Dylan Menges: [00:49:37] if you, best way to get ahold of me right now is email me to anybody dylan@Menges.design.

[00:49:43]and so yes, I have skate decks. I’ll be honest. The fulfillment is a hassle for me right now. I’m trying to get some of the things done. Love to get one to somebody.  shipping is not cheap,  but yeah, just email me.

[00:49:53] diane gibbs: [00:49:53] Dylan. Thank you so much for doing this with me and thank you for every, It’s Brian says, do you have any completes?

[00:49:59]Dylan Menges: [00:49:59] I don’t. So just to be clear, these are meant to be wall hangers.

[00:50:02] These are not meant to be ridden because I charged a hundred bucks for them there. We only did 10 boards and, you go on my Instagram. There’s a picture over here to my side, the side of one hanging on the wall. That’s how I intend them to be as art pieces. So that’s why they’re, again, super limited run, higher place.

[00:50:16]diane gibbs: [00:50:16] So Hannah who you might’ve also met at creative South she’s in Washington, D C. She says so many great thoughts. Dylan thoughts today, Dylan, you were one of my favorite professors when I was studying design

[00:50:26] Dylan Menges: [00:50:26] at Cedar. Oh, hi. Hello? Oh, that’s

[00:50:28] diane gibbs: [00:50:28] great.

[00:50:29] Dylan Menges: [00:50:29] Cedarhill woo there’s that’s for part three or part two or whatever we’re doing.

[00:50:33]diane gibbs: [00:50:33] All right, guys. we’ll see you next week. Hey, I want to let you know. Next week is my friend Henry. If you were at camp, we’re going to dig into a little bit deeper about the being waiting for someone to qualify you, or you being the person who does the qualified.

[00:50:48]Dylan’s like fading in and out with his, thing. It’s new little toy.  no, it’s totally fine. I was just saying what the name of it was. I don’t care. I’m happy. Look, we got 21 people still here. Obviously they like your shenanigan.

[00:51:02] Dylan Menges: [00:51:02] thank you to everybody that came today. I really appreciate it.

[00:51:04] It’s always fun. Hanging out with you, Diane. It’s

[00:51:06] diane gibbs: [00:51:06] always fun hanging out with you. All right. guys, we’ll see next week with Henry Kaminski, jr. He’s going to bring it. He talks fast and he,  has some really great perspective. He has an awesome story. I can’t wait to introduce you guys to Henry and we’ll see you next week, Dylan.

[00:51:21]Thank you. And we have so many more questions.