This isn’t where I thought I’d be

Episode 429 LIVE on Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 7:30 pm GMT / 2:30 pm ET / 11:30am PT / 9:30am in Hawaii

This week I have an old friend and fellow creative entrepreneur, Brian Perry. Brian is a singer, songwriter, life-coach, and author. We are going to talk about his latest book, “The Myth of Certainty” and his journey with mental health.

As we wrap up this month of focusing on getting our thoughts and minds in a place that works for us not against us, we talk about where we thought we’d be. Often our dreams and our ability to create a plan to get us to that dream is unclear or fuzzy.

There were so many moments in the book where I was hit by stingers that I had been through, or things I am facing. Being an entrepreneur, sacrificing so many things, and getting beat down by by inner critic is hard. We are going to talk about how Brian has made a difference, kept going, and taken on new challenges despite how hard it can be.

I hope you will join us Wed, Jan 25 @ 7:30 pm GMT / 2:30 pm ET / 11:30am PT / 9:30am in Hawaii

Or Listen here

The Questions

  1. Brian, can you give everybody a little background as a serial entrepreneur and your battle with mental health?
  2. Why do you think that starting a business is so glorified?
  3. It is hard. You talked about having trouble finding your footing as you started another business in your book, The Myth of Certainty. Pivoting in a business that already exists or struggling to find clients for the new offer is hard.

    What were some of the challenges that you faced in this recent business launch? (p. 25)
  4. Writing a book is hard. Launching it and releasing it is harder for some people. Which part of this process was most difficult?
  5. Can you tell us what the book is about?
  6. How has mindset and perspective shifts played a role in your life and especially when things weren’t going the way you had expected?
  7. I love the stories about Hindsight. It reminds me that little things in our real life, things we do and things people pass by, actually make a difference. We don’t know how much until someone is bold enough to tell us. Can you share the story about the pick up truck guy and the guy who was driving by every day?
  8. You seem to always be growing and developing yourself. In the last 30 days have you been learning anything or working on any new habits related to your creative business?
  9. You talk about owning what is happening to you instead of blaming or feeling like a victim. How has this acceptance helped you? Any tips you can share on how to make this a habit instead of the feeling of powerlessness?
  10. The overwhelm by being a solopreneur is real. Juggling so much and often I get into the state of overwhelm. I love the “Do Anything” chapter. Taking any action takes the pressure off of the inaction of the never-ending to-do list. How have you used this when in the middle of drowning in overwhelm?
  11. Why do we think the next “new thing” will solve our bigger problem? Why is it we focus on the law of attraction instead of the law of attention? Can you explain the difference?
  12. As I reflect on the book, there are a few chapters where the thoughts of, “I think it’ll be different for me, because I am different or special” but that wasn’t the case. This is a hard thing to accept but everyone has to do it eventually. Why is this hard to learn?
  13. Then we learn the thing but go on to do the same thing again instead of taking different action. These are hard hard lessons for entrepreneurs (and people not running businesses). How have you finally gotten through this cycle?

Connect with Brian

Website, etc
The new album, Yes, And is available now as is my most recent book, The Myth Of Certainty… And Other Great News. (And get your FREE “Transformative Storytelling” video & guide, too.)



[00:00:00] diane: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Creative Ignite. I am here with a longtime friend. Longtime friend, is that what we call a friend from a long time. Uh, so I’m excited to have my friend Brian Perry. Brian, I’ve known since I was at least 20, don’t you think? Yeah. Yeah. Something around that area.

[00:00:21] Yeah. Those, uh, we’ve known each other for almost 30 years probably. Wow. And, um, a lot has, uh, happened. Uh, [00:00:30] he’s moved and traveled and done all kinds of things, and we’re gonna talk about some of that. And one of the things that is what I think is helpful and read, um, Brian’s book, the Myth of Certainty and other great News, which I think I left off the other great news.

[00:00:47] Um, not on purpose, but I don’t, I just realized that I had left it off. But I had, I have so many highlighted things, so it’s really fast street. And it was really good. But Brian has been a [00:01:00] singer songwriter, and I’m gonna miss all the other things that you’ve done. So I’m gonna let you, that’s how, uh, he was friends with, um, one of my friends in college at Auburn, and then he went to, uh, Loyola, but his friend Eric, um, they were friends in high school.

[00:01:16] Eric was from Walton. He went to Walton also. Anyway, people who aren’t in Atlanta will be like, we don’t know what you’re talking about anyway, so let’s just skip to it. Brian, tell him who you are and what you.

[00:01:27] Brian Perry: Hey, everybody. Um, I’m, uh, I’m Brian [00:01:30] Perry. It’s wonderful to be with you. Um, I am a, I, well, what I do fundamentally is I, I serve stories.

[00:01:36] I help people live more of the truest story that they want to live, um, as they, as they see it. Uh, the modalities that I used to do that are as a singer songwriter, um, a clarity coach, an author, speaker, and a copywriter. So those are the things I do. It’s a, there’s a lot of hats, but the through line is stories.

[00:01:57] diane: Okay? So, and, and we do that visually. So [00:02:00] you’ve done it in other ways. Um, but you’ve, in those, you’ve also done so much of entrepreneurship. You have, I would say you are a serial entrepreneur. Um, and you have in this, so being an author, copywriting, Um, clarity, coaching, singer, songwriting, those are all things that, um, have allowed you to, I mean, it, they can be short or long term as.[00:02:30]

[00:02:30] As we know, we might have a product that we’re launching and it might have a small, a short, um, life, right? Sure. Um, like a banana. It might be a short life, right, just like a banana. Yes. And then some are longer, they’re plastic bananas and they have a very longer life. Um, I don’t know why I use that a weird analogy.

[00:02:50] Anyway, anyway, um, Brian and I have known each other a long time, but for me reading this book, it was, there were things that I knew or [00:03:00] things that have been of a through line out of our all that I know of Brian. But then there were other things. And I think one of the things I wanted to talk about was, since this is the last episode in January when we’re recording this, which I consider mental health month.

[00:03:15] Cuz I think it’s difficult after the holidays to come back in and it’s kind of gray. It’s not gray here today, thankfully. But, um, but it’s hard. It can be hard, but it’s also very hard to launch a new product or. [00:03:30] Um, even if the, if people aren’t serial entrepreneurs, it’s pivoting, pivoting in what they’re doing or changing to do something else because you have to start over and you have to be not good at something.

[00:03:41] Um, mm-hmm. . So the storytelling is something that you’re great at, but then there are things that we’ve had to, if I’m, you know, a designer, maybe I’m not a great illustrator. I have to get better at, at that I have to keep refining. So, in, how has being somebody who’s launched multiple things, how has that [00:04:00] affected your mental health?

[00:04:02] Or how can it, and how have you gotten through some of those things? It’s not exactly the first question, but I’m trying to bring the mental health back in, in, in the very beginning. So I

[00:04:12] Brian Perry: love that. Cause mental health is a huge part of it for me. What I do has never felt, Um, optional. It’s always felt connected to who I be, which is tricky in the creative entrepreneur lane, uh, [00:04:30] particularly where I started, which was in music where there’s a just so little that’s in my control.

[00:04:37] So much of it’s a lottery ticket sort of industry. Um, but, um, to the, to the mental health aspect of it. Um, so I’m, I’m neuro divergent. I, I have a d h ADHD and uh, in a form of dyslexia and I also lived with depression and anxiety. And for many years, uh, [00:05:00] decades, I viewed those as impediments, or I viewed them as access points.

[00:05:07] Like when I first started getting treated for depression, I was resistant to it cuz I was like, well, I need to be able to feel everything. for in order to enter the songs properly and such. And um, and my therapist at the time was like, well, no, you’re, you’ll be able, you, you’ll feel it. You’ll just actually be there for it.

[00:05:24] It won’t be. And that, and that’s, anyway, that’s, um, I digress. [00:05:30] The, for many years my relationship was, um, one of conflict, one of adversarial with my own mental health. I felt apologetic. I felt like it was my job to figure out a way to fit into all the holes that I don’t fit into and to behave the way that I’m supposed to behave.

[00:05:54] Um, but, uh, that’s, it never [00:06:00] worked. Cuz it’s not, it’s not who I am. Um, so I will, I, I guess by, by way of getting to a point, let me offer two things. One, I think growing up I felt. And still in many ways, in I felt like too much and never enough. Hmm. You know? Um, and I was always the one who was too sensitive.

[00:06:28] I was always the one who [00:06:30] was too expressive or too, you know, later when I was writing such too poetic or two whatever, and, and until I picked up a guitar and walked onto a stage, and then suddenly that’s what you were there for. You wanted somebody who was too much and uh, and was asking you to feel deeply.

[00:06:51] And then I would leave the stage and feel like, now I have to not be who I am. And that carried forth into developing my business too. [00:07:00] It was, well, yes, I am this wildly creative person. Connects things in a way that people are always like, wow, I don’t know how you think that way. And, and, uh, and yet I would be like, well, now I gotta go over here and try to behave like a normal, what a normal person.

[00:07:15] And so anyway, all that to say, during the pandemic, I pivoted into a new relationship with my work and, uh, picked up copywriting and was gonna silo myself out, which is what I always did. I am this, or I am this, or I am [00:07:30] this. And one of my good friends who’s a, a better mentor to me, on our very first conversation, I was like, by the way, I’m getting into your lane now.

[00:07:37] I’m, I’m kind of doing some copywriting. And she, and, and, and she said, the first thing I need you to do is not hide who you are. Mm. I need you to show up fully. The greatest value you bring is that you wear these many hats. The greatest value you bring is that you see the world through a creative lens.

[00:07:55] The greatest value you bring is the thing that you’re always trying to hide. [00:08:00] Um, so. In. At the end of the day, my entrepreneurial journey has become the kind of the most, one of the most healing layers of my life.

[00:08:11] diane: Wow. Okay, so, so this particular iteration has been important to. Um, this defi it’s been a definer because you have accepted all the pieces, all the parts,

[00:08:25] Brian Perry: yeah.

[00:08:25] Because it’s been about finding that through line. It’s been about finding like, [00:08:30] what’s, what’s the, the common thread so I can stop sort of being in conflict with myself. And, and what I have learned is that, uh, yeah, it’s a mouthful. The modalities I use are, I’m singer songwriter, author, speaker, clarity coach, copywriter, uh, and I’m neuro divergent and yeah, welcome.

[00:08:50] I mean, it’s, that’s, you know, it’s that kind of arriving at that place that whatever you find to be complicated about me is, is also very [00:09:00] much at the heart of the root of what you seem to get the most out of from me, of the ways that I’m able to serve the most. So it becomes this journey for me to embrace and accept me.

[00:09:12] fully.

[00:09:13] diane: So I can, I imagine that a lot of people, they’ve always felt like they had to edit to be, um, fit in, right? Yeah. We’ve all had to do this to some extent. And I tell this story, and this is a really old Brian story. Brian is really tall and I am really [00:09:30] not . And, uh, I didn’t, I couldn’t, I couldn’t find, I couldn’t find any pictures of us.

[00:09:35] But we’re,

[00:09:36] Brian Perry: uh, I’m

[00:09:37] diane: six six, yeah. I’m not, I’m five one people . I like to say that I’m six four. That’s, I feel six four. But anyway, one of the things I remember when you were growing up, you were, you weren’t super tall as a little kid, right? I was not. No. And I remember you telling the story about that you wanted.

[00:09:58] You would pray at [00:10:00] night, God let me grow, let me grow, let me grow. And we were, and, and finally, God, uh, really blessed you in this. And your dad is tall, so it’s, yeah, I mean, it was coming. Your mom is not tall, but you know. Correct. Like she was taller than me, I think, but not much taller than me. But so, and then he said, God, stop.

[00:10:20] Stop. Because he was hurting. And you know, people talk about growing pains and I feel like the way, the way I’m gonna pull this together, Brian, cause both of us have a d h d, [00:10:30] is that having multiple businesses or multiple pro multiple products that you’ve launched, or multiple iterations you’ve pivoted, you’re doing?

[00:10:39] Um, I, I see D Engels here. So she has done just regular graphic design, branding or whatever, and now she’s doing eco-friendly packaging or you know, things that are with eco-friendly brands. And that is, you know, it, there’s this, we have. We curved with what comes in our path, when what comes in our lane.

[00:10:59] And then [00:11:00] sometimes we find things that really fit. But we, we have just like you prayed for, um, getting taller. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. . Um, but there are something I never experienced was growing pains, physical, growing pains. You said? Yeah, my body hurt. You know, I was a, yeah, I hurt a lot kid. And. I never had that ever, but I’ve had that as an entrepreneur for sure.

[00:11:26] I have absolutely had that [00:11:30] in, in this. And this is like, when you, what it sounds like to me is that the, you wanna grow, you wanna grow, you got the growth maybe was a little fast, right? In some of these instances with the business mm-hmm. like you, you thought it would take a little bit longer or wouldn’t be so painful.

[00:11:49] Um, but then now you’ve gotten, and now you are this height, you are six six and you are, you are all these things. The singer songwriter, the clarity coach, the copywriter. You [00:12:00] are, you are, that is the height of you, right? And you’re not having to bend down and duck and, um, adjust yourself because you’re like, I’m okay.

[00:12:10] All these things because this is, this is where life has taken my business and this is where life has taken, um, my life. And these are the things that I’ve, instead of us always editing out and trying to be fit into a space mm-hmm. , that we are supposed to, was that okay? Do you remember that story that you told me?

[00:12:27] I do

[00:12:27] Brian Perry: remember that story, yes. And it was true. It was true. I, I, [00:12:30] I, I did, I used to pray, I think it was, cause my dad was tall, obviously I was, you know, when I was a kid I was like, make me taller. Make me taller. And then, yeah. And then I was like, stop, please stop. I mean, I grew two inches my freshman year of college, um, which was not comfortable at all.

[00:12:47] Um, but the, but with the journey, yes. I mean, there’s gonna be a lot of growing pains and for me it’s been a, so, so I think the growing pains for me in, in my entrepreneurial journey are [00:13:00] because. I am not naturally inclined to be good at the business side of it. I can do the creative side of it all day

[00:13:06] diane: long.

[00:13:06] That’s many people. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, you’re speaking to the people. So it is hard, but we, it’s hard

[00:13:12] Brian Perry: that part’s the I and I make it harder than needs to be sometimes. But it, but yes, and I, I think that for me, the journey has been, that’s why, so I think I felt apologetic. Mm. Um, and, and again, in conflict with myself, like, these, I need to be doing these things.

[00:13:27] This is what I’m, feels like. It feels [00:13:30] purposeful, like part of my purpose here. Uh, I’m not saying it, I need to be Oprah or I’m Springsteen or I’m, or I’m just saying that this is part of what I’m here to do is this stuff. And I think it has been very useful to me, particularly during the pandemic. I had all these thresholds in my head about, You know, Hey, well, okay, it’s, I mean, it’s great that my friends like what I’m doing, but nobody would like it if I was actually out in the world.

[00:13:53] Okay. It’s great. They like me in coffee houses, but, but, but nobody would like me in real clubs. Okay. It’s great. They like me in clubs and on and on and on all these [00:14:00] thresholds. And somewhere in the pandemic I started serving sort of the adults, um, in the room and, and working with executives and such. And, and, and I was like, I mean, it’s, it’s great that all these other, you know, NPR types have liked me, but the, but the executives, I won’t make any sense there.

[00:14:15] And I just, and I, and I was like, well, I seem to be able, this is, it’s not about that. This, the problem isn’t them, it’s me. I’m not, I’m not honoring that this is, um, I keep apologizing. I guess what I’m [00:14:30] trying to say. I kept apologizing for my journey and for doing it imperfectly and, and what has been happening for me in the last few years and really in the last year has been going, um, It’s the, it’s the most basic thing, right?

[00:14:44] Recognizing that I have, um, I have these gifts and I don’t have these Hmm. But other people do. So how can I get them in my circle? How can I learn, how can I, you know, uh, approach this differently? Um, I dunno if that [00:15:00] makes sense.

[00:15:00] diane: Yeah, that does. So as an entrepreneur, um, one of the things when you get to that point of being, realizing that I can do these things, but this is not my wheelhouse, so, right.

[00:15:12] Gay Hendrix talks about it in one of his books. I can’t remember which one. Maybe it’s the Big Leap, or maybe it’s one of the ones after. Um, but he talks about like, I could fix my printer, you know? Mm-hmm. , I, I, it might take me two hours or I could hire somebody. And it might cost me $80 to [00:15:30] have somebody fix it or $140, but it, it would save me the two hours that I could have been doing the work Absolutely.

[00:15:36] That I should have been doing. So for me, when I hired Chris Martin to edit my podcast, yes, obviously I did it for a very long time. Probably not as, uh, not super well, and that’s why it sounds better now. Thank you Chris Martin. But, um, it’s, it’s having, you know, you think you have to get to a certain stage to be able to not have to do all the [00:16:00] accounting or not have to do the taxes or not.

[00:16:02] Do you know what I mean? Like you Yeah, I felt like, um, I felt like it was a, in the beginning. Why I hadn’t hired anybody was because I thought that it was something that I didn’t have the funds to do, and I thought it was a, what do you call that when you eat candy? You know, it’s like you don’t need candy.

[00:16:24] Anyway, indulgence. Maybe it’s an, it was an indulgence. It wasn’t something that I [00:16:30] could see, but now I don’t even think about it. Chris says it’s a bad diet. Um, I think, yeah, candy is a bad diet, but I thought I should, and it’s the shoulding, right? I should have been, been able to do it. If I was going, it might not have been as good, but same.

[00:16:50] Oh my goodness. When I have just turned it over, I don’t worry about it and I know it’s gonna sound better. And people, hopefully the things that maybe [00:17:00] were annoying before aren’t annoying anymore because he’s taken that out. I mean, I, I never listened to it anymore. Thankfully. I don’t have to like re-listen to something.

[00:17:09] I’m like, he’s like, I was like, do we have intro music? I was like, are you, you playing something? And he’s like, yes, I play, this is what the new thing is, Diane. Um, but I trust him that much and it is so, um, it is such a big step to be able to hand those over to someone else, whatever the thing is [00:17:30] that you think it’s an indulgence to hire somebody to do, it’s so much easier just to have somebody that I know that’s really good with, uh, logos to make the logos for me, if a client comes to me and then I can art direct it, but they’re gonna actually make it cuz it’s really stressful to me and it’s not, um, worth it.

[00:17:49] But what, what for you, um, was, was it just in the p pandemic when you started, um, embracing the things that were you, was there [00:18:00] something, was there a first thing that was an indulgence that now you didn’t do because it wasn’t in your wheelhouse? But you had been doing it?

[00:18:09] Brian Perry: Um, not, not yet. Um, uh, I, but what I, what I have done is brought in support, you know, now I have two coaches in a therapist and they walk in a bar.

[00:18:24] No, I’m kidding. Uh, but, uh, , uh, it, and, and so I, [00:18:30] I don’t rely on sort of my best thinking, my best thinking. You know, I, I kid about the entrepreneurial side of what I do, that I’m, I am failed enough times as an entrepreneur to be poised for a great success. Uh, it’s, I, I, my, I have come consistently back to the things that I do creatively or things that I can’t not do.

[00:18:50] I’m gonna do ’em. And, um, and I’m 50 and time’s are wasted. Uh, and I, I, and I realized that it doesn’t really [00:19:00] matter to me. So some of the things that were, that seemed important when I was younger, particularly around music, like, you know, having the big hit or whatever don’t seem as important as, as continuing to just be in the craft mm-hmm.

[00:19:14] To just be doing the thing and, and to center my attention, my, my, my intention mm-hmm. If you will. So, like having coaches and such that, um, I, I, I’m, I’m working in a mindful marketing program right now with a coach and, and [00:19:30] it is freeing me to not think about what’s the next priority I need to do for the business side of things, which allows me to keep at the center of my intention that I, I help serve people who feel like their life’s not aligned.

[00:19:44] Like they, they, they, it feels like there must be more. Well, that’s where I want my attention to be. I’m not trying to figure out how do I be the next Mark Cuban. I’m not Mark Cuban. I’m not interested in being Mark Cuban. Uh, I, I’m, that’s, that’s just not what I do. I dunno if that that answers your question, [00:20:00] but, but for me, it’s, it, so it’s not at this moment.

[00:20:02] Yeah. I mean, I do, I have fresh books. I have things like that that I can use, but frankly, I haven’t really used them yet. Um, they’re just out there. But for me, the, the most important thing in the beginning has been saying it is a worthwhile investment to spend this money on, on these support teams that can, because for me, the big thing is this, I, I need somebody who’s enrolled in my vision, who understands me, [00:20:30] in other words, understands what I, what I’m trying to accomplish, um, and, and, and can help me.

[00:20:38] I can always see like 30 things that I can be doing mm-hmm. at any given moment. And sometimes I need somebody that says that’s the next priority. .

[00:20:49] diane: Yeah. So I, I think that’s a d h D thing for sure. Um, for me at least, I definitely have all these things and, [00:21:00] and I recently have taken it from a paper list of ideas to a digital list, so it’s easier for me to access, which has been difficult, but it’s something that I am committed to.

[00:21:13] But in that, the prioritization, because it can, it can be a freezing factor with so many things to do. Right? Totally. So many ideas.

[00:21:24] Brian Perry: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It end up getting none of them done. You never need, and, and then I, it’s just incredibly unsatisfying. Um, [00:21:30] it, it, you know, to, I mean, I have at my desk right now, I mean, just there’s so many different little scraps of paper with different ideas on them.

[00:21:37] And, um, yeah. So it’s, it can be overwhelming. And I think part of you mentioned in the book, I think that the book which I wrote several years ago now was a, was. Part of the gift in the time since the book has been, how do I live into this, this stuff that I’ve put out in the world, that, that un that embracing uncertainty is good.

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] News is a good thing. Um, and what it has directed me to is if I know that there’s not gonna be any lottery tickets someday, that’s not coming. It’s not a thing. It’s not a thing for anybody. Um, it, you know, Oprah’s not doing the same thing she was five years ago. Right? You know, pig your hero, whatever, whatever they’re in, they’re not doing the same thing.

[00:22:20] It’s just not the same. The, and the, and the great pains aren’t here to stay either. Everything’s passing through. So where does that direct me? Well, it directs me to that mythical place they call [00:22:30] now that all the gurus are always saying, be in the now. What the hell does that look like? How, you know, how do I, how do I do that?

[00:22:37] For me, I end up landing in this space of going, if I can bring curiosity to this moment as the joys and the pains pass through my space, which I use, I use a hula hoop to outline that the parameters of my world, if you will, like, imagine that your world really only exists inside that space of the hula hoop.

[00:22:55] There’s nothing else. All the things out there really only exist in here [00:23:00] to get real, real esoteric on you here. But the, but the, but the, those joys and the pains. If they’re not here to stay, what are they here to do? Teach us something. They’re here to offer me information. Right. Uh, Jerry Seinfeld says that, um, he was talking with Trevor Noah about pain, like, ouch pain.

[00:23:18] And he says, I’ve come to the conclusion that pain is knowledge rushing into fill a. Mm. Pain is knowledge rushing into fill a gap, stub your toe knowledge, there’s a table there, you’re not paying attention to where you’re going. So for me, I [00:23:30] started to notice that, that the highs and lows of my life, that passing through to offer information.

[00:23:34] Cool. Great. Um, well, if I know that I’m never gonna arrive at some big magical moment, what is the call then? Is the call to put to constantly have my focus on how do I get my business to X level? Or how do I achieve this goal? Yes. Work toward those goals. But if I know that there’s no big arrival point, then I am called to be more [00:24:00] present and to cultivate what I think that Long force someday will feel like in my life right now.

[00:24:04] Like I. what I think the qualities of that life will be if, if I hit that big target for my business. Um, and I

[00:24:14] diane: wouldn’t say good. That’s, that’s like success, what you are calling success. So the big target. Yeah. Yeah. So can you define I cuz I, I think that it’s different for everybody. I think that’s totally is a great exercise for people.

[00:24:25] Like what is that? What you’re calling is the big target. What is [00:24:30] success to you?

[00:24:31] Brian Perry: That’s a, a great question that I should have a great answer to and I do not. Uh, uh, but for me, lemme put it this way, I’ve often said that, um, that one of the things I like about the aspect of what the singer songwriter aspect of what I do is that the, for, for me, I was never gonna be a Lady Gaga.

[00:24:50] I mean, that was never my lane. So I, I’m a folk singer, you know, so for me, the whole goal was, To get to a place [00:25:00] where you are doing it full-time, so you get to write songs. So the whole idea was I’m writing songs so that I can get to a place that I’m doing it well enough so that I get to write songs all the time.

[00:25:10] But the way I do that is by writing songs. So if I put my focus less on, uh, I don’t have that big hit, but more on, I’m writing songs to get better at writing songs. I am writing copy to get better at writing copy. I am giving talks and writing books to get better at that. I am serving [00:25:30] the coach. So the answer to your question is less about the big goal and more about the experience of my, my lived experience of my day.

[00:25:36] I want my day. The practice. The practice. Yeah. I want my days to be rich with creative practice. I want them to be rich with creative service. Um, and I want them to be rich with opportunities to, um, to, to, uh, help people claim who they most wanna be. , you know, like I, and, and there are other kind of minutia layers for me about what a day, day [00:26:00] in the life would look like.

[00:26:01] But that’s like, that’s the, that’s the practice that I want to be in. And in many ways I am now. I wanna raise my income level. That’s something I wanna do for sure. You know, I, I like to be living in the mountains. That’s something I’d like to be doing. So I have those kind of targets, but the path to those is to cultivate the life day in and day out that I think I’ll be leading when I get there.

[00:26:24] The path is not to put all that off until I can get there [00:26:30] and burn myself out in the meantime. It’s to be it now.

[00:26:33] diane: Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense. So, so many of us, If we hit that place in, we’re pivoting. We are taking a, a chance, but we’re really just leaning into something that we’ve always wanted to do or we’ve had an inkling to do, but we haven’t ever given any life in our daily, uh, practice.

[00:26:56] Uh, or I can think of, like for me as an illustrator, [00:27:00] if, if I wasn’t, I, if I wanted to get better at illustration, I needed to practice it every day. Yeah, that’s right. But there’s so many times, so many years that I said I would love to be an illustrator, but I wasn’t doing anything towards that goal of illustration.

[00:27:15] Can I, can

[00:27:16] Brian Perry: I interject real quick, please. There was a, i i, for a time, Because I, I don’t know if the other y’all out there will appreciate this. There have been many times I’ve tried to not do what I do. That’s how I know there’s what I have to do. Like, I’ve been like, well, I better go get a real job and [00:27:30] be a adult now.

[00:27:31] And, and then I’m, then I’m like, nah, I, you know, very soon my soul is just dying. And, and, and then it’s back to, no, I’ve, what I need to do is figure out how to get outta my own way in doing this thing that I would do for nothing and have been doing for nothing and should be doing it for something . Let’s figure that out.

[00:27:50] But, but I was, uh, one time I used for a while I worked, um, for a company called, uh, six Man who produced music festivals on cruise ships, um, for, you know, like the [00:28:00] Zach Browns and John Mayers and that kind of folks of the world. And there was one of our cruises, there was a guy named Chuck Cannon on. Chuck is a, a hit songwriter, written songs for a lot of folks over the years, and I had the opportunity to speak with him.

[00:28:15] Actually, I got to call into my office cuz I needed to talk to him about something cuz I was running that cruise. So I felt that was pretty fun. Cause here’s this guy that I kind of idolized and I was like, Hey Chuck, I need to talk to you. Um, but that’s a whole other thing. Uh, but on, on his way outta the office that day, I was like, Hey man, can I talk to you for a second?

[00:28:28] I said, you don’t know this about me, but [00:28:30] I’m, I’m a singer songwriter. That’s part of my thing. And uh, can I ask you a question? And he was like, what’s that? I said, I said, what do you, what do you do about Writer’s Block? How do you feel about writer’s block? And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, what do you do about writer’s block?

[00:28:45] And he looked at me and he’s the sweetest man, but he got this, this look on his face that was just pissed. And he was like, there’s, there’s no such thing as writer’s block, just lazy writers. If you wanna [00:29:00] write, write sometimes it’s gonna suck. That’s sometimes it’s gonna be great. But you show up to the page.

[00:29:08] and, and you cultivate that practice. It doesn’t have to be painful. There’re gonna be, some days it’s not gonna be great, but most of the time it’s, you’re gonna enjoy doing it and then you’ll look back and go, I thought that was great, but the morning after, I don’t think it’s that great anymore. But sure was fun getting to do it.

[00:29:23] And uh, you know, so there’s, there’s iterating is what we do as creatives, you know, that’s [00:29:30] what we do. It’s, it’s not about, it’s always about the next thing and the next thing and the next thing in terms of the art getting better

[00:29:38] diane: so many times. And I love that story about Chuck Cannon. I think you’ve told me that, or it was in the book.

[00:29:44] I don’t remember. I, it seems like I heard you say it, but I was just listening to you as I was reading the book. I think. Um, so when, when you’re doing something hard, so writing a book is hard, but also it doesn’t end with writing a book. There is [00:30:00] another step. It is the launching, it is the releasing sometimes, uh, for people turning it over or putting it, putting it on Amazon or getting a publisher or publishing it yourself now.

[00:30:13] Uh, selling it or telling people about it, the promotion of it. Yeah. There are all these other things that the writing it, that would be enough for me. That was the hard part. Right. But what, when you are taking into consideration what you are [00:30:30] good at and what you are leaning into, is there certain, because this is like when we create a new, um, Dustin creates a new brush pack or something, or a new font or something and, or, or you know, um, some we have a new way of, uh, creating something else and we launched it out to people or a new design or a new Sure.

[00:30:54] Uh, whatever. Where in that, [00:31:00] that. Life of that product. Um, is it that you look at it and say, Hey, I need to get help. I don’t need to try to do this on my own? Or is it just about Well, I’m gonna try, I’m gonna do the best I can and then I’m gonna do it again and I’m just gonna be focusing on iteration.

[00:31:20] Brian Perry: It’s the promotional aspect of it for me.

[00:31:22] It, that’s, that’s the part that I, that’s long been a challenge because that’s the part where I don’t feel allowed to take up space in the world. Mm-hmm. , like, that’s [00:31:30] the, that’s the part where the imposter syndrome is, is like, what’s up? We’re having a party again. Cool. You know, uh, it’s, it’s at that moment where, where I’ve created something and now it’s time to talk about it, or now it’s time to share it and promote it and offer it up.

[00:31:46] And I, I just, uh, back in November released a new record and, and, oh, it’s just hard for me to talk about it over and over and over again cuz uh, it feels, which is the only way to reach people. [00:32:00] I mean, that’s in the, is is it’s, it’s, that’s the challenging part for me. The way that I am working to get better at moving through that is to set boundaries for myself, to make sure that I’m honoring my, not just pushing through and, and burning myself out with it, but recognizing, okay, I’m gonna have this amount of bandwidth.

[00:32:22] And particularly with social media stuff, uh, let me carve out a specific time, put it on my calendar, like a meeting. [00:32:30] And that’s the amount of time I’m gonna spend on that. I’m stepping away, you know? Um, and I, I am not going to, I’ve really gotten outta the habit of sort of measuring myself really as much by likes and such.

[00:32:44] Thank God. I mean, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, my, it just, it just doesn’t serve me. It doesn’t, but what does serve me, what really helps is, again, to focus on my, to put my attention on my intention. What’s my desire? Why did I [00:33:00] decide to take, in this case with the record, why did I decide to go from, Hey, I wrote these songs, they brought me joy to write, and they mean something to me, to now I’m gonna share them.

[00:33:11] What was my intention? Well, it’s not a, it’s never been really my intention so that I can get celebrity. It’s always been my intention so that whoever needs these songs, whoever’s gonna be served by these songs, can receive them. Cuz I know what they’ve meant to me. I know [00:33:30] what, uh, you know, we’re all a lot of visual artists, obviously, obviously on this podcast, but, but we’re all lovers of art and creative things.

[00:33:38] And I imagine some of that comes for most of us from how healing they have been for us, what they have meant for us. And that’s my intention. So part of how I move through my resistance to promotion is to focus on. If I, if, if me being a little bit uncomfortable now will get this in the hands of somebody [00:34:00] who needs to hear this thing or needs to read this thing, I’m here for that.

[00:34:05] That’s part of the job. And, and also part of, like, I, I hit a point. When it was just music where I, I had to stop making the business the enemy of it. Hmm. And so I, I got to realize that the, the, the business is a part of the music, is a part of the business, is a part of the music, and now it’s the, the writing is, the promotion is a part of the writing is a part of the [00:34:30] promotion, is a part of the speaking is a part.

[00:34:31] They’re all, they, they support each other. And if any one of them is not there, for lack of a better metaphor, the stool falls over. You know? Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s my journey. That’s the, the place that hangs me up is the promotional end of it. Um, but it also helps me to remember that. Also part of my intention is to be able to keep doing this and you know, food helps with that,

[00:34:57] diane: right?

[00:34:57] So I think that I would love to hear the [00:35:00] people in the chat who are here live if that is a area that holds them up as well. So to me, Brian, that speaks to me as, um, and this is probably why we’ve been friends so long cuz we’re the same, we’re very similar in that way of the promotion is really hard.

[00:35:14] It’s really easy as a designer for us to promote other people. Yes. So that’s what our thing is. I’m supposed to make something and it’s gonna help somebody else, uh, in their business. And, but how were they finding me? How were they finding [00:35:30] these things? And it is very, I love that it just takes up this much amount of time and you’re gonna.

[00:35:37] This exact thing and, but, um, and I’m gonna give an example that Diana Engels did. Dee did. Um, hopefully it’s okay. Um, but she was like, okay, there, I do love this. The helping thing. I think it’s really hard. She just said yes, it was hard for her. The promotion is also difficult for her. But this is something the way that, um, has encouraged me by just her living her [00:36:00] life like this.

[00:36:00] So I like this tip of just taking, I’ve scheduled it in as a meeting. It’s an hour long, or 45 minutes or 30 minutes that I’m gonna do this promotion, whatever that, uh, is either yeah, commenting or connecting or doing something. So Dee has had, you know, uh, She’s amazing. She does a lot of eco-friendly, um, packaging and um, branding those kinds of companies.

[00:36:26] And they also have another company that’s just for we would, [00:36:30] me and you love it cuz we love hiking and stuff like this. So, um, that one’s wild routed, but the, she called the, at the beginning of the year, or maybe it was the end of last year. You know, there’s sometimes writers are ha they don’t know what to write about.

[00:36:44] They’re like, I don’t know, where am I gonna find the next story? And it’s sometimes it’s just who you come to come, you know who you run into and who just randomly, it does feel like that sometimes the success engine, right? It’s [00:37:00] like, well, are they gonna find me? Well, the more places that you are, then the more people.

[00:37:04] And that’s what you were saying, that’s what you have to do to pay, get the bread on the table. Well, Dee just called, um, the local paper and said, Hey, I have a story. I have a really neat, um, thing. It’s about being okay. That saying what you made is neat, or what you do is neat. I think, oh, I love that. Right.

[00:37:23] And I don’t think she used that word, but that’s what she was saying. But that, to me, it was like, she just was like, you know what? And my [00:37:30] sister said this to me. If I don’t believe in me, who is, you know, if, how am I gonna get anything? Yeah. If I can’t tell anybody, Hey, this is something neat that I’m doing.

[00:37:40] And, uh, recently since December, I showed my sister something and I said I was proud of it. . And that was really hard. She was like, whoa. You said you were, I mean, in a text. She said, you good for, you said you were proud of that. Yeah. And it is really hard. It’s hard for me to do that, but Dee just called the paper and said, Hey, I have an idea for a [00:38:00] story.

[00:38:00] This is something. And that is like, um, and they’ve done this in, I don’t know if they did this another time, but, but at what? One other thing that happened in last summer, maybe the summer before they got picked up by a local paper, and then that story got picked up by a lot of other papers. And then it was in USA Today and it was all over.

[00:38:21] And it was a story about, and it’s like if you don’t ever help somebody, because that writer needed something to write about that was different and [00:38:30] unique. And we don’t think that we are different and unique, I think, but we have to do that. So that can be we, we,

[00:38:37] Brian Perry: 30 minutes. I love that. And I, I and I, I, uh, Dee that’s amazing.

[00:38:41] And I, I, um, and I, I think I, I think I very often find that, um, people, we tend to discount the things that come easy to us. We discount their value. Um, and we, and we fail to recognize that these are things that other people, they don’t [00:39:00] come easy to and that they’re longing for. And, uh, you know, I, I’ll say two things to real quick, and that is one, there’s a, um, a woman named Maryanne Williamson, um, who’s an author and a speaker.

[00:39:10] Um, and well, she’s the reason I have this tattoo on mine. Inside of my wrist, but she’s got this, uh, our deepest fear, not that we are inadequate, is a pass. This passage that she wrote, but the, um, you may be familiar with, doesn’t matter point is this, that she says, one of the things that she says in this passage that is her most famous passage that Nelson Mandela used in his inaugural [00:39:30] dress, um, was that we asked ourselves, who might be brilliant, talented, fabulous, gorgeous?

[00:39:36] Who are you not to be? Mm. And I, and I think that’s the thing that I keep coming back to at this stage in my life. I’ve been over here kind of hiding and being afraid to talk some about the things that I’m, that I care about and that I do, and that I, that I am reasonably good at. Not saying on the best, but, but is a way that I can do things and I can serve and I’m, and, and I’m of use.

[00:39:59] And [00:40:00] when I hide on some level, I feel like the universe is going, who are you not to. Yeah, there are people out there that need this. Who are you not to be? Um, and, and the the the second thing I wanted to say was that my, one of my coaches is a, a creativity coach, um, by the name of Sonya Rao. What? Just shout out to Sonya.

[00:40:19] She’s, I said, shout out. I don’t say shout out what’s shout out now. You do shout out, but I do. Uh, uh, uh, but, but, but, uh, we were on a call and Sonya’s very, [00:40:30] very peaceful and very centered. And, and, and I was like, well, she was like, what? What’s your creative goal for before our next session? I said, well, you know, I got this new record coming out, it’s called Yes.

[00:40:39] And, and I, I sent it to a couple of friends in advance just to take a listen. And I said, I don’t know. Maybe it’s crap mean it’s not. I don’t know, but I, but I, you know, and she was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Let’s just, let’s stop there for a minute, . So what do you think? Is it crap or is it not? Hmm. And, and when I stopped, to be [00:41:00] honest, it was like, This thing that I created was given back to me in that moment.

[00:41:09] And I, and I, I was, like, I said, you know what? It’s not. It’s, I, I love it. And, and I don’t know if other people will, and that’s okay. They don’t have to. But it, it mattered to me and it, and it, and it, and it worked for me. And my experience is, and honestly the pandemic has shown [00:41:30] me that we very often are feeling similar things at similar times as people.

[00:41:34] And if something is feeling true, if something lights you up when you’re creating it, no matter what it is, it will hold value to somebody. And when I get in my own way about sharing that more widely, because I’m afraid to promote or talk too much, I am on some fundamental level, sort of coveting something that’s not mine, covet.

[00:41:59] It came [00:42:00] through me in this burst of catharsis or joy or whatever, and it, it’s my job now, sort of the, the price of admission to being a creative to my mind is to send that off into the world and let it go wherever it needs to go next. I

[00:42:16] diane: love that. Well, and I think that it wasn’t super easy for Dee to do that, but again, it’s just, of course not like me being an illustrator and you getting Right.

[00:42:26] It’s a, it’s about us practicing that hard [00:42:30] thing and at some point it gets easier. And I know Dustin has a story where when he was making some of his first brushes, he thought just his mom was signing up with different emails and buying the brushes, you know, which I love this . And at some point Dustin’s like, my mom doesn’t have 400 extra dollars to just, and time to just be another email, another email.

[00:42:54] Great, great. And buying this. But isn’t it funny that that is where we default, that [00:43:00] other people might not, um, see that as, uh, you know, and and Dustin just said, for real, that’s how little I doubted my, or he doubted himself so much he didn’t believe in himself. And, and I think that that’s where, that is the same place every time we put something of ourself out there that isn’t validated by anybody else.

[00:43:25] It there, it’s hard. There is that chance of being rejected [00:43:30] and it could be an idea that we’re handing out to a client. But I’m, I love this kind of like, um, afraid to promote. Cuz I feel like a lot of us in the chat, this is a really hard thing, but I think Dustin’s gotten great at it after how many years?

[00:43:45] Dustin? 10 years. Um, he’s gotten great at it. He has people that work for. For him, and it’s because he’s just been after it. And he had a goal of just buying diapers for his daughter, right? Mm-hmm. . So that thing of, [00:44:00] I just wanna be this thing I’m doing, I just want it to be able to, you know? Mm-hmm. have, be able to provide diapers.

[00:44:06] So it wasn’t a really, success was really pretty low, but it was high. It wasn’t something he was achieving at the time. I mean, his daughter wasn’t born at the time, but he was building, they were building a baby. That’s what he wanted to be able to do. And it’s like, I love that he had the small thing. I love that you’ve said, Hey, I’m gonna do 30 minutes or a meeting every day to work on this.

[00:44:27] It does get o now it’s not, it’s [00:44:30] easier. You’re not having to like check a box. I did this. Because you said it, it’s just part of a habit now because it’s something that you do that’s part of you being a singer songwriter. You could pay for somebody to do that. But there are, I just like there, but I don’t pay for anybody to do promotion for me.

[00:44:48] Cuz again, I feel like it’s, I need to get to a certain place. Um, although there are some, um, quick steps, I feel like it’s like a diet. You could take something and only drink [00:45:00] water or this water with these fancy minerals in it, but at some point you’re going to eat real food again more than likely. And then you just get back to the same spot.

[00:45:10] So I feel like for me, when I’m taking from this, cuz this is also something I struggle with, is that I need to just incorporate promotion because I’m not gonna pay for anybody to do it for me yet. I’m going to incorporate it in and know, understand that it’s just part of this. And if I have something that’s unique, it’s going to be scary.

[00:45:28] But if I like it, [00:45:30] I need to put it out there if I think it’s helpful and I need to know that even if I just helped one person, that that’s enough.

[00:45:37] Brian Perry: Maybe ab Absolutely. I, I think it’s, I think that there’s, and by the way, the, the, the strategy I mentioned for social media is not something I do perfectly by a long shot.

[00:45:48] This is still an ongoing journey very much for me. But, but I know it, that’s possible if I can, like I don’t get angry when I run outta pens and need to go to the store and buy pens. Right. I [00:46:00] don’t, I don’t, I don’t get angry when I need to change the strings on my guitar or I don’t, there are, there are elements of what I, I don’t get angry with the things that I need to do to get prepped for a talk or the red, so why get angry at this other layer that is about me showing up and actually, like my word for the year, I always does these words for the year, but it’s, it is about the expansion and it, and it’s, and it’s really saying that I just, the gap between where, where I am and where I want to go.

[00:46:28] There’s not a whole bunch of new [00:46:30] tools I need to learn. I just need to let myself be seen more. I need to let myself be out there more. And the gift, one of the things I talked about that you, by the way, because you, we, we wanna talk about the book. I ended up reading it again because cuz it’s been several years since I wrote this one.

[00:46:49] And I’m, I kind of cooking up something new now, but I, but this, but one of the chapters in there, uh, the Gift of Crappy Gigs and, and I think one of the great gifts is, [00:47:00] and, and I don’t long for it, but one of the great gifts is rejection. One of the great gifts for me of when I was touring full-time as a singer and a speaker was, every day you are re-interviewing for the job.

[00:47:17] Hmm. Every day you had to go up there. And, and so you get to this place where you’re just like, I’m going to be with my love for what I do, and I’m going to be with my love [00:47:30] for offering it to you and, and, and inviting you into that, you know? Um, and you’re not all gonna like it. And, and, and I, and you know, there was, what’s that old quote, you know, other people’s opinions of me and done on my business.

[00:47:45] There’s, there’s an element of that that I think is creatives is one, is as much as being, uh, uh, what is a consistent quality among creatives is a, is a different kind of sensitivity, a different kind of awareness and a sensitivity. As much as that can, [00:48:00] can be something that’s challenging for us. There’s also an element of that for me, um, that, that is a gift cuz there’s, I don’t know, there’s some layer about, um, I’ve gotten to a point where it’s nice when people like it.

[00:48:19] Hmm. It’s not critical that you do like, you know, and, and, and it is really, really important with the promotional side of things. Cuz I’ll spend all kind of time crafting a [00:48:30] post or something and think, oh, this really holds something juicy. You know, and then nobody responds to it, which is contrary to what I was saying a minute ago about likes and stuff.

[00:48:39] But, but, you know, I feel like, well, nobody got it, but I’m, I’m more able now to get to a place where I’m just like, okay, moving

[00:48:47] diane: on. So, so there’s this, so, so in a way this is the success, uh, it’s still doing it without having to get the response or without the likes, without the, um, yeah, without knowing who you [00:49:00] impacted.

[00:49:00] So you have, there’s another chapter. I don’t, they’re not by numbers. It’s called hindsight’s and randomly it is the only one that’s bolded. Did you notice that? I did not notice that it is the only one that has a bold type, but I think this is so funny. So I have known Brian for a long, long time and he has written on the back of his window with like a, I always thought it was like shave and cream marker or something, but I don’t know what it was, but I guess it’s

[00:49:23] Brian Perry: like a, it’s like one of those pens you used for like weddings and graduations and such.

[00:49:27] diane: Okay, so pens you used for weddings and [00:49:30] graduations, you’ve been doing this for a very long time.

[00:49:32] Brian Perry: Correct. Since the Saints went to the Super Bowl. Okay. Which was too long.

[00:49:37] diane: Okay, so damn it , that, that was a really long time ago. So, so you’ve been doing this and um, it’s just these small little, it’s you, you, it’s only how much you can write in a back window, you know, it’s not like you can write a novel back there.

[00:49:52] So it’s just these little bits, but this is enough. You just put it out there and you don’t know who sometimes, [00:50:00] um, you know, with the Saints it was like honk and everybody was you, you would get response then as you were driving. But there are plenty of times you don’t know who sees it and you don’t get any feedback about Exactly right.

[00:50:12] It was successful. Yep. So I loved this part. So there were two things, and I don’t know how many years in between or months in between, but you had these two guys who came up to you. Can you just tell these, this story, um, the, you were in a parking lot and this guy comes up to you. Can you tell that [00:50:30] story?

[00:50:30] Yeah.

[00:50:30] Brian Perry: So let me offer that. So the hindsights I did start doing when I. Riding on the back of my car when, when the scenes won Super Bowl. Cause it was that kind of, you know, honk of your hoo dat kind of thing. And, and that was, that was fun. Yeah. There was some of the pictures of it and, and then I started doing other statements and initially they were just like motivational quotes.

[00:50:48] And then what I realized was that, um, and you all will probably get this, that like if, when you right in the back of your car Okay. When you’re standing in the back of the car, it’s [00:51:00] correct, right. You can see that if you get inside the car and turn around, it’s backwards. Mm-hmm. . But

[00:51:06] diane: when you, you call it Right reading and ro like the, I I figured there was a term wrong reading and Right reading.

[00:51:11] Um, gotcha. It’s sometimes you have to have it backwards when you’re printing printmaking or something like that. Go ahead. Ah,

[00:51:16] Brian Perry: see, I figured there, I I, I knew it was right. The right. Uh, but anyway, uh, but when you look in your rear mirror, It reads correctly. And so what I realized was it became a really powerful tool for me to shift something.

[00:51:28] I was trying to change my thinking around because [00:51:30] most changes I want, I need to make in my life come start from changing a thought about it. And so I would kind of take myself through a coaching session week over week and say, what’s the thing that if I, if somebody came up to me randomly and said blank to me this week, that I’d be like, oh, thank you.

[00:51:48] I needed to hear that. And that’s what go up in the back of my car. And what was amazing is I found that the more personal and true it was for me, the more [00:52:00] universal it became and the more people there would be some response to it. And the two stories you’re talking about were on two occasions, um, I had.

[00:52:10] Uh, one guy, uh, he came by me when I, as I, as I was, uh, getting in my car one night, , uh, outside of work, and it was dark and it was in an area of Atlanta that’s kind a little sketch. And, and he came up in his like, [00:52:30] Sanford and sons looking pickup truck with junk in the back and everything, and it beat up and all that.

[00:52:35] And, and, uh, and, and he, he, he pulls up and he’s like, Hey. And I’m, and I’m like, and, and I’m like, what’s up? You know? And, and, and, and he’s like, you know who owns this car, man? And I’m like, yeah, bro, it’s my car. And he’s like, and he starts crying and he says, oh, oh. He says, I want to, I wanna thank you, man. I make it a point to drive down this street every week.

[00:52:59] To [00:53:00] see what the new thing is gonna be in the back of the car. You’ve, there’ve been, you’ve, you’ve saved my life. Uh, and and that’s come on. And, and, and, and then here you’re doing this. I’m doing this thing that seems so dumb and it, it, and it, but it, it matters because it’s coming from a true place. And you’re

[00:53:17] diane: not expecting anybody to be like, no.

[00:53:19] Put a little thing and say, I lost this. You know, check mark here,

[00:53:23] Brian Perry: Venmo me here. No, it’s nothing like that. It’s just, you know, it’s not right. .

[00:53:27] diane: Right. But so I love that because it, [00:53:30] it, the expectation is really you’re, you’re doing it. It’s something for you, but you’re also gonna share it. That vulnerable thing that you need, you’re gonna share it.

[00:53:38] Yeah. There. And then sometimes you get these people that have also been affected. That’s where the success is, like, yes, it was worth it. But you’ve done it for so long. It doesn’t seem like maybe the first time it was all about New Orleans. So you were like all for it. And there were. There was a lot of things that were [00:54:00] common.

[00:54:00] It, a lot of people might have had done that, but then you kept doing it, so then there was some uncomfort or discomfort because you were doing something different on a regular basis. Yeah, and I love that you’re like, it’s like a $5 marker that lasts me six months or something. You know this. And it’s just time.

[00:54:18] That’s all it is, is takes a little bit of time. You don’t even really probably have to bend over because I would have to like get on the back of my car, you know? So there’s, but you, you luckily are built in a way that you can just like, [00:54:30] whoop, whoop, and there it is. But that we, you weren’t expecting anybody to come and tell you anything from, uh,

[00:54:38] Brian Perry: ever.

[00:54:39] No, it wasn’t the reason for doing it. It was not the, it wasn’t ever the

[00:54:41] diane: point. And so that’s like you writing the songs, you’re not writing them because That’s right. You want to make a difference. We’re not making art or doing something for ourselves because we want to. Increase something. But here’s the, this is the difference in, in maybe the commercial side [00:55:00] is that there is that expectation of, um, of making money at it or, uh, bringing more people to the insurance company that we’re doing a promotion for, right?

[00:55:12] But I think that if we are authentic, And get their authentic message out. We do have to be out there doing what Dee did, going and saying, Hey, I have this story, I have this story, I have this story we have to tell people. Although it’s really uncomfortable, it may be, I remember [00:55:30] for years people would be like, Hey, to go, um, do you know Chris Doe?

[00:55:35] And I’m like, no, I don’t know who that is. And he’s this big guy in our industry and I didn’t know. And I didn’t have time. I didn’t have time, um, to be hunting him up or whatever. Right. So then a friend of mine texted me and was like, Hey, I have this friend. He wants to talk to some women designers and also educators.

[00:55:56] And since you’re both maybe you could talk to him. I was like, fine, [00:56:00] you know, I’ll give him 30 minutes. It was on a Saturday and it was Chris Doe. I didn’t know who he was. I was like, oh, just tell me who you are. Tell me about you. And I’m like, If I had just followed my friend Jordan, he was like, you need to have him on your show, or you need to, whatever.

[00:56:14] Right. But it was like, instead I just, I didn’t look him up. Um, I love him, like he’s great and amazing, but I’m glad I met him the way I did because I didn’t have this big, uh, you know, [00:56:30] super, it would be like Oprah, you know, like meeting people. Right, right. Like I didn’t have that and I still don’t think of him like that.

[00:56:38] I just think, yeah, you didn’t have him venerated like that. Yeah. I just think of him as my friend who needed something and I was there to listen. Right. So in the same way, maybe what we are doing, what you’re doing in your business, what Amy’s doing in her business, what Brian’s doing in his, um, Brian Bundy.

[00:56:55] I was just going down the row. What we are doing. Maybe it feels at some point [00:57:00] that we haven’t. We’re just putting the marks on the back of our car and nobody’s seeing, but people Oh, it feels that way a lot. Yeah. But people are seeing it. People are

[00:57:10] Brian Perry: absolutely, absolutely. And I would imagine even more so in the field that most of the people that, uh, that are your audience, I mean, you, you don’t get that feedback.

[00:57:19] Like I, I’m, I am fortunate that I do get the feedback, but not with your car. You don’t, but, but not, but not all the time. Yeah, you don’t. And, and, and it’s, it’s, yeah, you’re right. You, [00:57:30] you never know who you’re impacting. And also when the corporate clients and that sort of thing, the notion that sort of st being authentic, coming from a true place, coming from a, a place that brings you joy and spark, um, uh, is antithetical.

[00:57:44] To, to what’s antithetical? Uh, the, the it works against is, is opposite of Okay. Because in, in opposition too. Um, prophet is a f is a false notion. Right. It’s, it’s, it’s just, we know that, um, so the, the [00:58:00] surest and particularly now we know from, from, uh, millennials and Gen Zers, that, that they’re, they, they’d have no time for, uh, I dunno if I can swear on the show.

[00:58:11] No, no. Don’t swear. , they, they, they’ve got no time. Yeah, yeah. For, they’re, they’re all about tell the truth, man. And, and, and so I think, I think that that’s, I think that, yeah. So I think that’s, that is the. The thing is, is you, you don’t know who it’s impacting. You can’t [00:58:30] know who it’s impacting. But if you’re coming from a place that’s true, it is impacting.

[00:58:34] diane: But you have, get out there and try to, you have to try. You have to get out there, share the story, because nobody will tell you won’t ha make any impact. Dustin wanted to make no impact if he had sent it to, to his mom. Mom,

[00:58:46] Brian Perry: a hundred percent yes. Who’s four of of ’em maybe, right? That’s right. That’s right.

[00:58:51] Uh, there have been no diapers. There’s, yeah, it’s, yeah. That’s, that’s the key. And, and then the other thing that I just wanna make sure is, [00:59:00] is that don’t, don’t dismiss again, don’t dismiss the things that come easy. Most of the things that I do now, like what I do as a, in my work, as a, uh, part of what I do as a clarity coaching, um, I got kind of dragged kicking and screaming to doing that.

[00:59:17] What happened was I had clients and peers who would come to me and say, like, particularly with the copywriting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I, I’d like to hire you as a copywriter, but what I really need Mm. What [00:59:30] you’re really amazing at that I need is your ability to, to distill down this broad concept of this really one memorable line, or help me to see how I’m telling a story that I don’t hear myself telling.

[00:59:44] And, and I was like, well, yeah, I mean, that’s easy. And they’re like, yeah, it’s not for me, jerk. Okay. Can I, could you, could you do some of that? So I think sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s ironic cuz we’re on the one level. We, some sometimes hold back because. , we are, we’re afraid of the, uh, [01:00:00] of putting it out there and being rejected.

[01:00:01] And on the other hand, we hold back because we’re not listening to what they’re telling us is working for them. Mm. Because we think it comes too easy. So anyway. Well, we also

[01:00:12] diane: have that same, that struggle of, like you were saying, you, you’re, you lean on your coach to tell you what the next priority is.

[01:00:20] Right.

[01:00:21] Brian Perry: Because it’s hard to Yeah. Help me to help me get clarity. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[01:00:24] diane: But it. And I think as designers or if anybody in here is a strategist or we’re [01:00:30] doing brand strategy for a company, we can see from the outside we can put ourselves in their customer shoes. We can put ourselves in their shoes and we can kind of say, Hey, this is confusing.

[01:00:41] Let’s get this, let’s focus on this. But it is really hard to do it for ourselves. It doesn’t matter how great we are at doing it for other people. Like, you have done this for many, many people. You’ve helped many people do this, but it’s still something that you struggle with. So then, and maybe not you, but this is [01:01:00] me, this is anybody.

[01:01:01] This is where we have to have people in our lives, which is something you said in the beginning that we have to have that support, that that framework of people and things that are gonna help us. Because usually the thing that we might be really good at our superpower isn’t something that we can turn on ourselves and do for ourselves.

[01:01:22] Brian Perry: But that’s, and And by the way, that is why. We’re good at what we do. Like it’s because I struggle with these [01:01:30] things that I understand the struggle, and it’s because I’m challenged by these things that I have insight into help. How to help you out of that challenge. You know, there’s a, there’s a, an old story about a guy who’s, who’s walking along and he, he falls into a hole and it’s this deep hole and he can’t, oh yeah, he can’t get out.

[01:01:53] You know, and, and he’s, and he’s hollering up and this, this, uh, this, this doctor walks by, he’s like, doctor, doctor, you gotta help me. A [01:02:00] fell his hole and I can’t get out. And doctor writes a prescription, throws in the hole and walks away. His priest walks by, he’s a father, father, you gotta help me. I got fell in his hole and I can’t get out.

[01:02:07] And priest writes out a prayer and throws the hole and walks away. And his buddy Joe’s walking by and he’s like, Joe, Joe, I fell in his hole and I can’t get out. And Joe jumps in the hole. And the guy says, what the heck are you doing, man? Now we’re both stuck down here and Joe says, yeah, but I’ve been here before.

[01:02:24] I know the way out. Hmm.

[01:02:27] diane: I love that. Have you ever heard the one with the donkey? [01:02:30] No. Same thing, but no

[01:02:31] Brian Perry: priest. No. That I need in my life. Donkey. We go, .

[01:02:35] diane: So here’s what it is. A donkey was in a hole and this guy didn’t know what to do and he, there was no way to get the donkey out. And so he was like, you know what, I’m just gonna cover up.

[01:02:45] This kind of gets me teary to be honest. I’m just gonna cover, I’m just gonna bury the donkey. And every time he would throw a shovel of dirt on the donkey, the donkey would shake it off and stamp it down. And then, and [01:03:00] eventually there was enough dirt in the hole that the donkey got out because the donkey never gave up.

[01:03:06] The donkey wasn’t about to give up saying, yes, just kill me. The donkey saw that dirt Wow. As a ladder. And he used it as a ladder. And I just think somebody is probably pulling pudding, dirt. I thought at first you were like, he’s just gonna do three. There’s not enough paper. You know who, who’s how many pieces of paper.

[01:03:25] But again, if you’re still diligent in doing what you’re doing, [01:03:30] there’s gonna be enough dirt and there’s gonna be enough paper and the donkey walked out of the hole. Right.

[01:03:35] Brian Perry: That’s amazing. I’ve never heard that story. And I love that story. That’s, I love that

[01:03:39] diane: story too. I didn’t make it up, but. Anyway. I have one other thing.

[01:03:42] So yes, there was, there was lots of other questions. Um, I suggest everybody to, I’m gonna share a link for you guys to get the book. I, I just highlighted it through so much and you may think, oh, you just highlighted cuz you’re friends with Brian. Nope. I think there’s so many universal truths in here. And, and thank you Brian.

[01:03:59] This has [01:04:00] been a really great conversation and I always go over some thank you guys for hanging out. You can leave whenever, um, or if you keep listening, but I’m gonna share, uh, you can get this at, at or www dot yes. Brian That’s the way to get the book. Um, I think you can also, uh, Get it a at Amazon or something else as well.

[01:04:20] But I’m gonna put it right there in the chat. And if you’re watching on YouTube or you’re listening on SoundCloud, there’s a link right at the top of this. But there was one question that A, [01:04:30] a lot of them, I mean there were so many good ones, but this was one where I feel like this as a serial entrepreneur, as somebody who also have had many different products or different things that I’ve put out there, there are times when I think, you know, people, there was a part in the book and it said, you know, people told me that getting going, this job that I was going after, you were going after was gonna be long.

[01:04:53] It was gonna take a long time and it was gonna be hard, um, or challenging. And, and you had said, [01:05:00] And I’m reading my question now. Um, but it’s like, and maybe you didn’t say this, but this is what I’ve thought as well. People will tell you something and you’re like, no, no, it’s gonna be different for me. And this might have not been an audible that you were saying that I’m saying, but in my head, I think, uh, it, but I’m, I’m different, you know, like, um, I’m, I’m special.

[01:05:20] I’m, I’ve been told this, or I’ve already had this stuff. I can, you know, I’m gritty, this isn’t gonna hit me. And I still [01:05:30] think rejection is something that still is something that hits me hard. Sure. So, you know, I would’ve been the donkey being like, okay, sure. Bury me instead of the donkey. Like, oh, okay, this is the ladder you’re giving me, you know, shake off the dirt.

[01:05:44] But how, um, that wasn’t the case in, in that situation. And I’m gonna read my question. This is a hard thing to accept, but everybody has to, has to do it eventually. Uh, why is this meaning. . Um, [01:06:00] it was hard. It was difficult. Somebody was actually telling you, um, something to look out for and to plan against.

[01:06:09] Not that I want people to not feel special cuz I do want people, we are special, but there are still, it’s the same that they still are in the same hole. They just have to look at the dirt at a different way. I think. What, what, why do you think this is hard or what, what’s a situation that helped you to get through this or move past [01:06:30] that, of being so torn up that it wasn’t different for you and that it was the same and it was challenging?

[01:06:36] It did take a long time. Like cuz at some point we feel like, I thought I was different and then we just give up. Right? We maybe not give up on life, but we just give up on, I’m not gonna do this anymore because I thought I was different. I thought it would be easier for me. But really it is that pain that’s coming in that’s teaching us something.

[01:06:57] Brian Perry: It’s a good question. I think it, it, it’s, [01:07:00] it’s, it’s less that you overcome it and more that you shift your perspective on it, like you’re saying with the donkey that it’s, it’s, um, I think that certainly when I was 21 and starting out, I thought, well, sure, sure, other people have to pay all these dues and go through all this stuff, but not me.

[01:07:19] It’ll just, a few years from now I’ll be, everything’s gonna be off the races.

[01:07:23] diane: So do you think it’s something just young people deal with?

[01:07:25] Brian Perry: Like No, I don’t, I think, I think that we tend, [01:07:30] here’s what I think we, we do, we have a tendency to think that, hey, it’s gonna take you if you go to the gym, Right. And you wanna lose a certain amount of weight or something, I don’t know.

[01:07:42] Or bulk up or bulk, whatever. Yeah. And they’re, and they, and they’re like, uh, that can be accomplished. It’s gonna take six months. And you’re like, not for me. It’s gonna take two . That, that, that you’re, you’re, there’s a fundamental misreading you’re thinking that that six months [01:08:00] is a bad thing. Mm. That the, the six months is how long it takes because there’s so many rich things you get along the way that, that, like for me, uh, you, I think you titled this, our conversation, something about this is not where I thought I’d be.

[01:08:15] Yeah. That I’m so glad I’m not where I thought I’d be. Like, there was a another writer that I saw at a conference who said, I’m so grateful. All of my friends that I watched have hits and move on. He’s a Nashville writer, have hits and move on. [01:08:30] I’m so glad that didn’t happen for me until now. Because I needed that journey.

[01:08:36] Like that was the journey that I have walked right up until this point is the thing that has prepared me for being the, for the experience of me in the world that I truly want. And the people that I see in my life that had the things that I thought I wanted back then, I don’t want their life. Mm-hmm. So I [01:09:00] think there’s an element of trusting the process and an element of going, if it’s, I don’t try to put it this way, if I, if I get in the car, I’m in Georgia, right.

[01:09:09] If I get in the car to drive to Seattle, Washington, um, Today, I don’t like get as far as Memphis and, and get out of the car and go, ah, stupid Memphis, hate Memphis. You know, I thought I’d be in, I, gosh, everybody told me it was gonna take three days, but I thought I could get there quicker. Stupid [01:09:30] Memphis. I go, I go, I’m in Memphis.

[01:09:32] How great is this? And I’m on my way. Mm-hmm. and I’m able to show up fully to that city. And that’s where the joy of, of road trips is. Right? When I know I’m on my way, this is me en route, this is me en route. The, the six months is me en route to a sustainable, new relationship with my body. And losing that weight or getting in that shape or bulking up, whatever I’m doing.

[01:09:51] Um, getting in the car and driving to Memphis is me on my way to Seattle. Mm-hmm. , I, I get to change my relationship with it. [01:10:00] And now to mix the metaphor, mixing a third metaphor now, now I am the donkey in the hole. Not seeing the dirt as somebody trying to end me seeing the dirt as somebody giving me a gift.

[01:10:11] And I’m like, Woohoo. You know, and I’m, I’m just, I’m stamping it down with joy cuz I know I’m on the way. So I think if I can keep focused on this is what it looks like to get there, I’m on my. , I’m on the road trip, it’s already happening. So now I can enjoy the, the truck stops and the, and the roadside attractions and the [01:10:30] things along the way.

[01:10:31] I can show up to them more fully. Enjoy the journey a little bit more. Not to be totally cliche, but it’s true. Enjoy. What is my experience? Hey, I’m getting to do the art. Mm-hmm. getting to create, and that was always the goal. Hmm.

[01:10:47] diane: I love that. Brian, thank you so much for Thank you. Hanging out. This was great.

[01:10:52] And, um, I had ways too many questions. I knew I

[01:10:56] Brian Perry: wasn’t gonna get, I got, I got more to talk about, but we could talk for hours, you know, and I, [01:11:00] same. I was like, this is a fool’s errand. We’re not , but, uh, such a joy. Um, such a joy to reconnect with you back in the fall. It had been a long time and, and, uh, yeah, just, we just have

[01:11:12] diane: to keep, keep doing it.

[01:11:13] Uh, Brian for sure. And Rajim says she has so many takeaways from this, and she was talking about it in the chat. I wanna make sure everybody knows how you can connect with Brian. He’s almost on everything at Yes. Brian Perry, Brian, b r i a n. And [01:11:30] I’m just gonna put these so on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and then on his website, which I will put in again.

[01:11:37] Um, it’s just, thank you all. Yes. Brian Perry. Um, that is the best way and you can get the book too. Again, it is an, it is an easy read and maybe you don’t wanna read it all in one day, but I definitely suggest having a highlighter and a pin. I don’t think you would be offended if people were writing all over the book.

[01:11:56] Brian Perry: Right. The least fit. No. Make it

[01:11:57] diane: messy. Yeah. So there’s a lot of [01:12:00] great, um, tidbits in there and it is something that I think I can come back to and, um, do. And they can also get your new album. Yep. Yes. And at this, uh, same location, or you can get it on Apple Music or wherever it’s, uh mm-hmm. , all those options.

[01:12:15] Um, but if you wanted to, if you wanted to read the rest of the questions, Feel free, uh, to go to this page on, uh, this isn’t where I thought I’d be. I think it’s funny that this ends up in the, it isn’t where I [01:12:30] thought I’d be is like the donkey in a way. Um, it might not have been where you thought you would be when you were 21, but you’re glad you’re here and you’re not sure that you would’ve, if that target of what you were dreaming about when you were 21 had you hit that and you were there.

[01:12:51] You might, um, you’re where you are and you’re glad where you are. I am.

[01:12:56] Brian Perry: I guess I am. Um, yeah, I mean, because look, right now I’m, [01:13:00] I’m, I’m on a, I’m on a Wednesday afternoon talking with my friend Diane and a bunch of other wonderful people. So the other, there you go. I’m very glad, .

[01:13:06] diane: Well, Brian, thank you so much and thanks for talking about and being open and talking about mental health.

[01:13:12] Um, I do think it’s great that you have support and you’ve gotten help from therapists and from friends and from coaches. Um, you were not supposed to do this alone, like Joe getting in the hole with the, with, yeah. Right.

[01:13:28] Brian Perry: And you’re not broken. Like the mental health. [01:13:30] Mental health is, is, it’s not mental broken.

[01:13:32] It’s mental health. It’s health. It’s, it’s your, I’m, this is part of how I work and you’re welcome. I mean, again, that’s, that’s, that’s, it’s not what makes me broken. It’s what makes. Um, it’s what makes me valuable. What, where I become more of me. Anyway, I’m gonna keep going on if I don’t shut up. So, uh, so, but wonderful talking to everybody,

[01:13:51] diane: but thank you Brian.

[01:13:52] And next week, um, we’re gonna kick off the month of what I, again, changing what anybody? Um, not that it, I don’t, I, anyway, [01:14:00] I do February as love on designers and it’s really just love on creatives and so next week we’ll start and there will be challenges for you to do. Each week, um, one week will be focused on just your colleagues or your peers.

[01:14:15] Somebody to encourage. One week is focusing on somebody who you’ve never met but has made a difference in your life. Um, one week is focusing on you and I can’t remember what the fourth week is, um, but I will have it down for [01:14:30] next week. Um, but there are some fun little challenges and February is the month where I do giveaways.

[01:14:36] So I think Brian Bundy has gotten, uh, one of the packets. You get cards and stuff to be able to send other people to encourage them and lift them up. So lovely. We’re gonna be loving on some other people next month. And Brian, thank you so much for today and thank you. I will see you guys next week.[01:15:00]

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