How to be a Design Student with Mitch Goldstein

LIVE on WEDNESDAY, Nov 8, 2023 at 11:30am PT / 2:30pm ET / 7:30pm BST / 9:30am in Hawaii

This week I will talk to Mitch Goldstein about his new book, How to be a Design Student. We are going to talk about being a student, teaching students, and having the mentality of a life-long learner. What helps prepare someone for being a student of design? Are there things you wish you’d known before getting into it?

I have a feeling some of these tips would help anyone who is going to pursue a bachelor’s degree, not just design students. These might be great things to know especially if you are planning on hiring a recent graduate. Do they know what to expect? Do you know what to ask to help decipher what they know and what they think they know?

Let’s dive in…
I hope you will join me for Episode 453, LIVE on WEDNESDAY, Nov 8, 2023 at 11:30am PT / 2:30pm ET / 7:30pm BST / 9:30am in Hawaii

You can be part of the conversation live with us. Simply join the Creatives Ignite Family by giving me your email and get a reminder email 30 min before the show: You can also add it to your calendar so you don’t miss it. (Those links are in the emails). See you there, then you can type in the chat and ask questions live.


  1. Mitch, can you tell everybody a little about your background in design, including where you got your start, where you are in the world, and what you do now? 
  2. What made you start writing the “Dear Design Students” tweets?
  3. How did the book come about?
  4. Is this book for people who want to be designers? Is this for anyone or traditional college students? Is this just for someone who is going to student design at a college or university?
  5. I think of myself as a forever student and I am wondering if there are any bits of wisdom that even a seasoned designer or a designer who is working alone might glean from the book?
  6. I know you also love to learn and most recently got another degree in furniture design. Can you tell us what attracted you to furniture and how you see it melding with graphic design, is it a pivot point where you will be only building furniture, or is it more of a hybrid practice?
  7. What are some of your pet peeves in regards to students who are studying design?
  8. What about pet peeves that are just student related?
  9. What do you love most about teaching?
  10. What’s next for you?

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[00:00:00] diane: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Creatives Ignite. And this is an episode that I think we all are design students for the whole of our life, really. Maybe not everybody, but um, me as a design professor and a designer. I am definitely a design student long term. I know for sure Mitch is because he got a three degrees, right?

[00:00:28] A bachelor’s in [00:00:30] graphic design, a master’s in graphic design, and then a master in furniture design. Yep. There’s design in all of those. Great. And you are, as a professor, I know you have to be continually learning, especially in design. There’s so many new things we have to teach. All kinds. Definitely.

[00:00:47] There’s foundational things. Mm-Hmm. Um, so I wanted to, we you have, um, when did you start, um. Expressing yourself on [00:01:00] Twitter and asking, uh, or giving design, dear design students, how many years have you been 

[00:01:05] Mitch Goldstein: doing that? Um, boy, that’s a good question. Um, I started my first round of Twitter when it was, Twitter was in the, must have been the late 2000, 2000 aughts, so maybe 2000 8, 9, 10 in that kind of neighborhood.

[00:01:21] And I started out, originally, my first Twitter account was a fake Twitter account called Angry Paul Rand, which probably nobody on here remembers. [00:01:30] And I was basically, this was when like Mad Men was really big on tv. Mm-Hmm. And I was basically decided to do this, like drunk pissed off Paul Rand that was like the character.

[00:01:39] And so it was a lot of, ’cause I mean, he is a, you know, I never met him, but I’ve heard many stories from people who’ve known him. He’s a gruff personality. Um, and so I was just doing this kind of like, clearly it was a parody. I mean, it was not Right, right, right. Not really pretending people, you know, but it was funny.

[00:01:53] And that was really kind of fun. And, and at the time. This is so hilarious to say out loud, but at the time I think I got [00:02:00] like maybe 15,000 followers, which put me on like the front page of Twitter 15 years ago. Like, that’s how many people that was back then. Now that’s not that big of a deal, but um, it was really, it’s a big deal to me.

[00:02:11] Well, it’s a big deal to a lot. Yeah. I mean it was, and so I did that for a little while and then I was like, you know, this is fun, but I kind of like actually have stuff I actually wanna talk about. Not just being amusing, but like things I really want to do, talk about as I kind of was getting my grad degree, getting my first master’s degree, getting into education like professionally.

[00:02:28] And so I sort of quit [00:02:30] that and then paused for a few months and then started really just my own account. And eventually it got bigger and bigger and bigger for again, whatever reason that I still don’t believe I deserve, but I digress. Um, and then I started thinking about, you know, just really like who I was on Twitter and, and, and is it gonna be like a fake Mitch?

[00:02:48] Is it gonna be some sort of, you know, hyped version of me? And really what I settled on was being pretty much just me. And, and being authentic, but not like a calculated, I’m [00:03:00] gonna be authentic to get your views way, but just being who I really am. And then I started tweeting to students and really ultimately I was tweeting to me more than anybody else.

[00:03:08] Mm. I mean, everything I said was first to me. Um, I think it was, um, John Gruber who does this blog, daring Fireball, which is like a tech blog that I don’t really read anymore. But he once said his, he’s writing for him, like his audience is a, is a clone of himself. And I always thought that was really interesting that it wasn’t about me trying to like, tell people what they wanted to hear.

[00:03:29] [00:03:30] It wasn’t about cleverly sort of directing things at certain, it was just like, here I am, take it or leave it. And, and that was it. And then it just kind of, for whatever reason, blew up into a, into a thing that. Again, I still don’t understand why, but I will take it. I’m grateful for it. Um, but that’s really kind of where it all started.

[00:03:51] Yeah. Okay, so 

[00:03:52] diane: take us back. Tell us a little bit about your background. You, um, undergrad, you started, tell us where you went if you want, and [00:04:00] then, um, what you studied, you studied graphic design, but then what happened after? Sure. Uh, undergrad. Okay. 

[00:04:07] Mitch Goldstein: Yeah. So my, my first round of college when I was 18, um, was in Syracuse University trying to do an architecture degree, which I spectacular.

[00:04:15] Are you from New York? Nope, not at all. It was just, um, I’m from Rhode Island originally. Okay. And, um, it was just i, something architecture or something I always wanted to do and I got into at the, I have no idea where Syracuse is now, but at the time it was like a top five school in the country for this.[00:04:30] 

[00:04:30] And I like barely got in and then I failed out spectacularly, which was great. Um, I think I ended up putting in about three years there. One year of which I was paying attention in two years was mostly not paying attention. Um, and so after that I kind of floated around and did a lot of retail. Like I sold computers.

[00:04:48] I actually sold long distance, which nobody but you, and I probably even know what that is on this call. Um, that was actually a thing you would buy. You would buy long distance phone service. So I did a whole bunch of kind of just things that were not really [00:05:00] interesting and just making enough money to scrape by.

[00:05:02] Eventually I started getting into doing some more fine art. I eventually started getting into doing some very, very low level like web stuff in the late nineties. Um, that was all it was, was low level. Yeah. It was all it was was very rudimentary. Right. And then, um, every black background, they were all, yep, yep.

[00:05:19] It was like, like transparent gifts and all that good, all the goodies there. Um, I think I used Dreamweaver at one point. 

[00:05:25] diane: Yes. Dreamweaver. Yes, me 

[00:05:27] Mitch Goldstein: too. Me too. Uh, and then a friend, um, this friend of mine, [00:05:30] Jason, um, and a couple of other people opened up a small design studio. He really opened it and kind of hired me.

[00:05:35] And that was when I realized like, oh, wait a minute. I could actually do this for a little. Like, you get paid to do this. Like this isn’t just a hobby. And then I realized I was kind of hitting a wall. I was hitting a ceiling of where I was able to get to. I just couldn’t think past a certain point. It was very rudimentary.

[00:05:51] And I realized like, oh, I should really think about school again, but I have no idea how I’m gonna do that. And my dad, one day we’re having dinner, he’s like, you should go back to school. And I’m like, what age was [00:06:00] this? This was. God, what was I, third? 30? 

[00:06:04] diane: Yeah. 29, 30. This, this can be hard at some point. Yeah.

[00:06:07] Because some people have already moved on. Yep. Uh, and then you’re like, oh, I’m in this limbo. So this is also, we have a lot of, at our school, we have a lot of people who are not traditional. Yeah, exactly. 18 to 23 

[00:06:21] Mitch Goldstein: year olds. Right? Yep. And for me, it was great because I wasn’t ready to be a college student at 18.

[00:06:26] I was extremely ready when I was 30, 31. ’cause I [00:06:30] realized, oh, there’s nothing wrong with working in retail. I mean, some people do it and have a phenomenal career. For me, it was not good. It, it was not, I never felt valued. It was just like, how much did you sell today? I don’t care about anything else you did.

[00:06:42] And that’s fine for other people, it’s not fine for me. And so my dad was like, you should really think about going back to school. And I was like, ha, ha, ha. Don’t be a jerk. And then he was like, no, really think about it. And I thought about it and I decided, screw it. Let’s try it. So I applied, because I was in Rhode Island, I applied to Rhode Island College, which is like a good local college.

[00:06:59] And then I applied to [00:07:00] risd. Rhode Island school design, which is some would say the best design school on the planet, 

[00:07:04] diane: right? Probably number one is still on list. Yeah. Probably number on the list. Yeah. 

[00:07:07] Mitch Goldstein: For many people. Right. So I didn’t get into Rhode Island College and I got into RISD on a scholarship, which makes absolutely no sense if in any capacity.

[00:07:17] And so obviously I like clearly went to, you know, and I went to risd and I really, and I loved it. I, it, it is, I, I mean obviously I love teaching and this is kind of what I do as a profession, but I can’t overstate the [00:07:30] impact RISD had on me. Yeah. It was such an important moment for me and, and I remember driving up to my mailbox and the mailman put in the congratulations envelope sticking out so I could see it.

[00:07:41] Like, it was a really wonderful moment, you know? And so I went to risd, um, had an amazing time there. Did lots of work. Met a ton of people. Um, I, I met my, how 

[00:07:51] diane: many more years did you have to take classes because you had done three years? I did like three and a 

[00:07:56] Mitch Goldstein: half years. Yeah. I did a summer and then three full years.

[00:07:59] Okay. To [00:08:00] get my BFA, um, I met my former partner there. Um, you know, my romantic and professional partner we’re no longer together. Um, and then from there we did a bunch of studio work and a lot of freelance stuff. Had some clients, and eventually decided a few years down the road, maybe it was time for a master’s degree.

[00:08:17] I knew I wanted to teach. I had been a TA when I was an undergrad at RISD every semester. And I was teaching sort of adjunct after that, you know, getting a class here and there at risd at Rhode Island College, who [00:08:30] ironically did not accept me because time is a flat circle. Um, and, and eventually I was like, I really wanna do this.

[00:08:37] Like, this is what I wanna do, like with my life. Like I really, really love teaching. It’s really where I’ve should be. And so, a grad degree, you know, an MFA was. More or less needed to do that. So did you go 

[00:08:48] diane: straight from RISD to grad 

[00:08:51] Mitch Goldstein: school? No. Okay. We, we had risd then my, my, my, my former partner, Anne and I worked together for four or five years.

[00:08:59] Three or four [00:09:00] years, something like that. Um, and then in 2010. Went to, went to VCU for my first grad degree, which at the time I thought would be my only grad degree. It was not, there was never a plan to do more than that, and that was 

[00:09:12] diane: really great. What, what kind of work were you doing before you went to grad school?

[00:09:16] So 

[00:09:16] Mitch Goldstein: we did just sort of graphic design agency stuff. Okay. Just a lot of, you know, missed clients and things, you know, you know, good work. I think we did quite solid work, but it was, you know, as you do your hustling, were you still in Rhode Island? Yep, we were in Providence, yeah. Okay. Um, eventually went to graduate [00:09:30] school and that’s when I realized like, okay, if I’m gonna do this, then this has to sort of have a result at the end that is valuable because grad school, despite getting to go to a very good program for very little money, it still costs, you know, there’s still a, like a fee associated.

[00:09:44] I knew I wanted to do full-time teaching, and so we ended up both applying. Um, originally Ann got a job at MICA in Baltimore, so we did Baltimore for a year. Um, I wasn’t really getting a job. I ended up at RIT in Rochester where I am [00:10:00] now. Um, and then she came up sort of a year later and that’s, you know, sort of where we settled.

[00:10:05] Um, and that’s where I’m today still. And um, she is also teaching at our it, even though we’re separated, we’re still friends and she is teaching at RIT as well, which is great. Okay. So 

[00:10:13] diane: then when did you decide your bit, so you actually knew you wanted to be a teacher when you were at risd, you had that kind of calling.

[00:10:20] You knew that Absolutely, yes, you love design, but there was this other thing. You knew you wanted to make impact in this way, but then, so you are working, you go back [00:10:30] to grad school, now you have the credentials to be able to teach. When do you decide to go to furniture design? Like when, how is that a bug in your ear?

[00:10:39] Like, ’cause this, I mean, in in I love that you’ve done this. This is like huge. Hugely. I inspiring and I really admire Thank you. Because I can, Ima I can’t imagine having, uh, going up for tenure doing all the things that you have to do to be at a [00:11:00] research institution, which I’m pretty sure 

[00:11:02] Mitch Goldstein: are, uh, it’s actually not, it’s a teaching institution.

[00:11:04] Teaching 

[00:11:05] diane: is, well ours is a teaching, it’s a lot of work institution as well. But we still have to do some research. Yep. Yep. And so it’s like, um, how do you do that and go get another degree? ’cause it’s not like you were like, Hey, I’m gonna take a year off or two years off or three years off and go get a furniture degree.

[00:11:24] Mitch Goldstein: I mean, it was kind of stupid to be honest. No, it was the dumb decision. Um, I basically [00:11:30] decided, I got, I got tenure. After. After working hard and and doing all the applicant, I finally received tenure and I was thinking, okay, I’ve got tenure and tenure back in the day. Really represented an amount of intellectual freedom and all this stuff, right?

[00:11:44] Right. These days, all tenure really means is you just have a kind of permanently renewable contract. Um, I can be fired, I still do my job. It’s not like you’re on vacation. I think there’s this illusion of what tenure is where you’re just like. On a beach like phoning into class that is not, it’s, it’s, you work a lot harder after you get tenure.[00:12:00] 

[00:12:00] And I decided like, you know what? I’ve always been interested in sort of making stuff. I’ve always really liked architecture, obviously I’ve always liked building things. I like putting stuff together. Like for me, building IKEA is like a dream. Like I love putting IKEA together. Um, and I was like, you know, I’m always interested in this stuff.

[00:12:18] I’ve never really worked dimensionally, like I’ve worked flat, you know, 2D but I’ve never really worked. 3D RIT happens to have one of the best furniture programs in the country. Um, and it turns out one of my [00:12:30] benefits is free tuition, which at first I didn’t even register. And I’m like, oh, wait a minute.

[00:12:34] That’s interesting. And so I met with the chair of the school. I met with the dean and I’m like, I’m interested in doing this. Is this something you guys are okay with me doing? I’m not gonna not teach, like you’re not paying me to get another degree. You’re paying me to teach. Right? So I will obviously still be teaching, but are you okay with me doing this?

[00:12:51] And they were like, absolutely, hell yes, please do it. That’s that’s awesome. So everybody in the administration was super supportive. My faculty was super supportive. My colleagues were super supportive. [00:13:00] I did a summer class, like all one little five week summer furniture class and I was instantly like in, I’m like, oh my God, this is so cool.

[00:13:07] diane: Did you already know how to use all the tools like planers and Nope. 

[00:13:11] Mitch Goldstein: Saws and didn’t know the words. Didn’t have any. I had a screwdriver. Wow. Like I had nothing, you know, and so over, you know, you, you buy some tools. I get a, you know, I had a studio space on college. Like I was really, I was a student. Um, all I was taking was basically the major studio.

[00:13:27] I wasn’t doing electives ’cause I already had [00:13:30] essentially transfer credits from my degree. Yeah. So I was able to just do the studio. And furniture is really weird because as graphic designers, we can pull out a project, start to finish in 24 hours, depending on what the job is. You know, we’ve, you know, you could do a whole project in 20 hours of work.

[00:13:45] Right. It takes an entire double credit semester class. So a six credit studio to do one good piece of furniture a semester. Um, and usually we do a secondary thing that’s a little less precise and it was not enough [00:14:00] time. So it’s such a different mindset. It’s so completely alien to what I was used to.

[00:14:05] It’s not Photoshop, it’s not digital. It’s like you’re in, it’s physical. It’s like cutting things and splinters and sawdust and you’re in it and it’s so, it’s so cool. It’s just so fascinating. 

[00:14:18] diane: Yeah. Okay, so Amor is here. She has a, um, industrial design degree. Yep. And, um, so, and she likes furniture as well.

[00:14:27] Mm-Hmm. It’s her And I’ve had many conversations about that. So [00:14:30] what’s the difference? I think I know, but I’d really like you to tell me ’cause I’m not, uh, I might not be. Mm-Hmm. I might be assuming. So what’s the difference in industrial design and furniture design? 

[00:14:42] Mitch Goldstein: Arguably nothing. Arguably furniture lives in most schools, furniture lives in industrial design.

[00:14:47] Certain schools have furniture design programs, but most schools don’t. Because it’s such a specific discipline that if you wanna do furniture design, you’re usually in ID and you. But as what you do is you’re designing furniture [00:15:00] at RIT and other schools that have a program. It’s really pretty different because Id, and I don’t want to sound like the most ignorant person in the world because I am not an ID person, but, you know, ID is so much more about manufacturing and material studies and things like that.

[00:15:15] Um, and ultimately what you’re making in ID is sort of, um, visualizations, mockups, a lot of, yeah. Like Morris said, a lot of tools, things like that. Mm-Hmm. Materials, ejection molding, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Furniture. You’re making a one-off [00:15:30] thing. It it, so like 

[00:15:31] diane: art. So in, so like you have photography.

[00:15:35] Photography can be commercial. Mm-Hmm. Or it can be Mm-Hmm. Art, you know, fine art photography, right? Is that kind of what this is? So there is furniture design that is more in industrial design and then, and that is like mass produced, or there’s furniture that’s like, I’m making this table that’s very specific.

[00:15:54] I, I 

[00:15:55] Mitch Goldstein: honestly, I think those words are sort of meaningless to be, to be totally honest, I don’t really think about it [00:16:00] in terms of art versus design. I don’t separate them in my head, which I know a lot of people. 

[00:16:03] diane: So art versus commercial, 

[00:16:05] Mitch Goldstein: that’s not, I don’t see it like that. Okay. I see it as what the intent is.

[00:16:08] And for me, the intent was not about mass producing stuff for me, the intent was not about becoming a, a sort of production furniture maker, which is what most people will tend to do. For me it was just another way to express myself and another medium, another format, another set of things to understand and learn.

[00:16:27] Um, another way to visualize [00:16:30] whatever’s in my brain, which please don’t ask me ’cause I can’t possibly explain that. Um, and it was just a really wonderful opportunity that I grabbed. 

[00:16:37] diane: But this was something where it finally was physical. Yep. So this, and it was weird. Yeah. Scratched an itch for you because you’d been wanting to do architecture.

[00:16:47] Is this, does this meet the need that you were wanting for architecture to fill? Does this really fill that? 

[00:16:55] Mitch Goldstein: So, that’s an interesting question. I think it is getting there, [00:17:00] not yet, because now that I’ve gotten this degree, I now have, you know, I, I have, um, a body of work I want to create, which I can’t explain to you because I don’t know what it is yet, but I think it is, I think where my, uh, boy, this is a tough question.

[00:17:15] I think my practice ultimately is gonna sit in sort of a hybrid space between a lot of disciplines, because I don’t like one thing. I like lots of things. Mm-Hmm. And I really like seeing how I can smash photography into furniture design, or how can I smash painting and [00:17:30] graphic design together or whatever.

[00:17:31] And whatever. And whatever together. To me that’s really fascinating. Um, I really don’t like silos. I really don’t like labels. I don’t like divisions. I see it all as one big mess. It’s one big interesting gray thing that, that I get to do stuff with because that’s what we do. Like I’m paid to be curious, like that’s what a teacher does, I think.

[00:17:50] Yeah. Like we’re professionally curious, you know? For sure. And, and it’s like incredible. It’s like the most incredible job in the world. Like, I can’t believe, and I’m not saying this like [00:18:00] for a quote, I can’t believe I get to do this because 20 years ago there I was gonna just sell retail. Like that was it.

[00:18:07] I was gonna just live paycheck to paycheck and kind of hope to get some friends or whatever. And that was it. And now I’m getting to do this thing, which is so beyond my ability to comprehend that I get to do it. And that by some measures I am good at. Again, I would always question that personally, but objectively, I’ve done pretty well for myself.

[00:18:26] And so it’s really amazing, you know? And the fact that RIT is an [00:18:30] institution that was like, hell yeah, go get another degree. That’s awesome. You know, you’re gonna teach like you have your job. But absolutely, it was, it’s unreal. It’s incredible. I’m not saying that lightly. It is exceptionally extraordinary.

[00:18:43] I got to do this. Like, it’s ridiculous. Well, one 

[00:18:45] diane: thing I love is that we’re gonna talk about being a design student and your dear design students. Mm-Hmm. When you are in that, you’re teaching, but then you’re also learning. Does that help you to like, ’cause you said earlier I was [00:19:00] really writing these to myself.

[00:19:01] Mm-Hmm. And I, I do think that we are constantly learning. We are not ever not a design student. Absolutely. I, I believe so when you’re, you’re taking these furniture classes, does deer design students have a different twist? Was there something. Did something happen because you’re having to learn something?

[00:19:25] Or did you hear the tone in the Dear design student [00:19:30] tweets change at all? Um, 

[00:19:32] Mitch Goldstein: I mean, I think honestly it helped me be better teacher Mm-Hmm. In that it helped me realize like, oh, all of this stuff I think I’m doing as an educator now, it’s gonna come bite me in the ass because it’s happening to me. Yes.

[00:19:45] And, and me being like, cagey about this, you know, I’m, if anybody’s, I don’t know who’s in the room. If anybody’s had me as a teacher, they know I’m very cagey. I’m very abstract. I don’t like answering questions like with solid yeses and nos. I’m always like, good question. You know? [00:20:00] And now all of a sudden I’m like, Hey, what do I do for this furniture?

[00:20:02] And they’re like, good question. And I’m like, oh, dammit. I’m like, alright, I deserve that. Like, I, you know, that’s. So that was actually fascinating to, to sit on the other side and, and not to judge the people who taught me. ’cause the people I had at furniture were phenomenal. I mean, they’re incredibly skilled people, but to be like, oh, so what does it really mean to be a student?

[00:20:23] Like, what do I really want or need? And, and, and you know, there’s a million answers to that question, but I thought that was really [00:20:30] valuable to me. Not only making furniture, not only getting to do this incredible opportunity at a really high-end program. Not only getting to, to work with these students that were now and now my friends and colleagues.

[00:20:40] You know, it’s really amazing. But on top of all that, it’s like, okay, you know, here was today’s kind of class. Like what did I learn as a professional educator out of this? And that was really valuable. Um, and continues to be really valuable. I don’t know if I would say it radically altered by pedagogy because I kind of think.

[00:20:57] I feel pretty dialed into where my head is, but it [00:21:00] definitely helped clarify and sort of alter some stuff for me. Well, 

[00:21:03] diane: and I think you, that was really good. Have empathy in a way, a different way because you’re like, oh, I don’t know what you’re wanting. Yep. I really want to solve this correctly. Mm-Hmm.

[00:21:13] And your teacher’s like, there isn’t a Correct. It’s Yep. You know, and you’re like, oh, now I see how frustrating that could be when I say that to, right. 

[00:21:21] Mitch Goldstein: So, and, and I don’t think I was a particularly great stu. Like, I don’t, you know, you’d have to talk to the people. I, I like, I, I mean, I, I worked, but I don’t think, I wasn’t like rolling in there like, [00:21:30] I’m good.

[00:21:30] I was like, I. What is this tool like? How do I, you know, and it was really hilarious. I actually remember the first project we do, because you really wanna learn all the hand tools, is you have to do a table completely by hand, no power tools, which is extremely hard. Like really, really difficult. And I remember, you gotta picture me, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m in my late forties and I’m like in the bench room.

[00:21:54] And the other guys are, you know, the other students, the other people in the class are kind of hanging out, having lunch and I’m like 10 feet away trying to [00:22:00] plane a piece of wood and they’re all eating lunch, just giggling their butts off at me. And I’m like, yeah, I earn this. That’s fair. Like, that’s, that’s reasonable.

[00:22:08] Like, it was a good moment actually. I was like, yep, here we go. Like, we’re not kidding around. Like, I’m not rolling through this, like, I’m gonna work my butt off. Right. Um, and I didn’t, it was worth it. I mean, it was so incredibly worth it. 

[00:22:19] diane: That’s awesome. Okay, so, um, back, we’re going back to the Deer Design students.

[00:22:25] When you began, after you were, uh, [00:22:30] the. Not real. Paul Rand, the angry Paul Rand. Yeah. Right, right. It when you were being, you, you’re figuring out your voice. Um, I can think of things that I would say, and I have had conversations with another colleague like, Hey, we should have a course for, you know, parents who are putting their kid in or the kids.

[00:22:54] It’s like, Hey, here’s how to actually succeed freshman year or Here’s how to [00:23:00] succeed in college. Um, is when you started as you Mm-Hmm. Um, and then how it develop. Was there a big change in that from where you were right after you weren’t Paul Rand to where you are maybe now. Has there been like shifts or I.

[00:23:24] Mitch Goldstein: Oh yeah, I think always, yeah, I’m always changing. I, I, I, I have always, um, [00:23:30] I, there, uh, there’s sort of a, a of a idea on, again, the artist formerly known as Twitter, where you would delete old tweets because you realized, you said something, you know, you’ve changed. And I was like, no, I’m not doing that. I’m a human being.

[00:23:41] I’m gonna change my mind. I changed my mind every 10 seconds. Like, I’m not gonna pretend what I said 10 years ago is as valid. Right. I mean, I’ve, I can’t recall anything off the top of my head. I have unquestionably said idiotic garbage that I would look at now and be like, dude, what were you even thinking saying that?

[00:23:58] But again, [00:24:00] to me personally, the, the, the authenticity was always there. You know, like it was always, uh, I believe always a real reflection of what I was thinking on a given day 

[00:24:10] diane: or a given week. So was it a frustration? Was it, and you said this earlier, you were really talking to you. Was it like, uh, like what was the.

[00:24:21] Starter, like what were some of 

[00:24:24] Mitch Goldstein: the, I think it was partially that I like [00:24:30] to talk, like I’m bubbly or whatever, you know, whatever word I wanna use. I think it was partially that I think design, art, design, whatever word we’re gonna use here, is such an abstract gray thing. That understanding in any way you can, I think is valuable.

[00:24:47] For me, posting the stuff on Twitter helped me understand what I was doing. Um, I So it’s part of your processing unquestionably? Yes. I would argue it’s part of my creative practice, actually. Um, I, I would [00:25:00] lump it in. I, I don’t, I would argue, I mean, again, I have colleagues I love and adore who completely disagree with me on this, but I would argue that.

[00:25:09] Writing posts on Twitter, doing a podcast like I’m doing right now, making art, teaching, writing, reading. It’s all part of my creative practice. It’s all one thing. It’s not a whole bunch of different things. So I don’t see it as a separation. Like there’s Twitter Mitch, and then there’s teacher Mitch. It’s just Mitch.

[00:25:26] Right? And, and I really decided [00:25:30] that it wasn’t just, I didn’t roll into it. I, there was a, I don’t remember the day, but I was really like, you know what? I am not gonna act like these are different things. ’cause to me they’re not. And, and I can write a tweet and then that tweet informs something I say to a student two days later.

[00:25:45] And then that student we’re talking about something. And that sparks a thought that kind of rolls into something I’m working on my own, which then rolls into maybe an article I would write or whatever. And I think that denying that is foolish. Why would you [00:26:00] pretend they’re different to me? They’re not different.

[00:26:01] It’s one thing. And that’s how I roll. And I dunno if it’s a good move or not, but that kind of just how I tend to go. 

[00:26:07] diane: Yeah. I love that. So I’m gonna ask you a question about processing or Sure. Reflecting. Are you, are you a journaler? Do you write, do you, is this is really, ’cause Twitter’s shorter number or used to be even shorter.

[00:26:23] But, um, having to process, uh, and communicate in a [00:26:30] number of characters is hard in itself. Mm-Hmm. But is that, are you, are you re really reflective and then you’re, after you journaled, then you’re going out and doing the tweet or you’re like, 

[00:26:45] Mitch Goldstein: I’m just going. I really, the writing that I’ve done other than the book obviously, is really Twitter.

[00:26:51] Like, that’s where I write my, my writing is sort of public in, in that respect. Um, and which is really tough because I actually sort of just quit Twitter [00:27:00] or X or whatever the hell, let’s not go down that road right now. Um, I decided I’ve had enough, um, because it’s no longer really interesting. It’s just sort of a vile place to be and I’m kind of done with it.

[00:27:12] Um, but I think for me it was, here’s what I’m thinking. Let me try to verbalize it in a way that is clear to me. I. Let’s see if other people kind of understand that, and their reaction to it will help inform me about what I’m thinking. And so if I said something and they’re like, [00:27:30] actually, dude, no, X, y, Z, and ignoring the trolls, I’d be like, oh, good.

[00:27:35] You’re right. I haven’t point right. Considered that before, you know, thank you. And that is when it’s magical and that’s when it’s wonderful. And it isn’t just all the garbage that’s on there now that I’m done with, like, I just can’t deal with it anymore. Um, and so I think that pop sort of like, um, I’ve always described it as, as just like, um, I’m not hiding anything professionally.

[00:27:57] Like I’m just, there’s nothing to hide. Like, here’s what I’m thinking about, here’s what [00:28:00] I’m worried about. But personally, he’s hiding all a lot of things. But personally, there’s tons of stuff I’m not gonna tell you. But, but professionally or, or in terms of my kind of creative practice, you know, again, this lump idea, I, I wanna know what I’m trying to do and I have no problem looking like an idiot in front of people.

[00:28:14] Because I think, honestly, as an educator, the student’s like, oh. He’s not kidding with this. Like the stuff he’s spouting to me in class, he’s doing it. And, and I always really, I always felt like that was a really smart move on my point to, to sort of not hide my [00:28:30] practice. Um, the first thing I say in a new semester is go Google me and then you can decide if you think I know what I’m talking about or not.

[00:28:36] Just ’cause I’m the person standing in front of the room doesn’t mean you have to care. Yeah. You know, and nobody wants to say that, but it’s true. Like, you don’t have to give a crap about this class I’m in. I I think you should. I think there’s stuff to learn, you know, I think you can learn, even if what you learn is you don’t wanna do this, that’s still a very valuable thing to learn.

[00:28:52] But I think by being very open about it and being very, um, upfront with how all over the place I am, I think it [00:29:00] sort of makes what I have to say in some ways a little more valid for the students. ’cause they’re like, oh. Oh, he said that, oh, look at this post he made about this stupid thing he made that sucked.

[00:29:09] It’s like, oh, he is not kidding. Like, he’s really doing this. Yeah. And so for me, that has always been super valuable. Um, and that is why I am never afraid to like, follow students on social and stuff. You know, I, I’m always very upfront with stuff like that, so. 

[00:29:22] diane: All right. So if you’re not on that platform anywhere anymore, where are you?[00:29:30] 

[00:29:30] Pretty much just where you’re sharing. Just Instagram, you’re sharing those things. Okay. So now we’re going back to some of the dear design student tweets. Okay. Okay. Um, so as you’re doing this, I can imagine if I was doing this, it probably would not have come up. I would’ve been just like complaining about students, I guess, you know.

[00:29:51] During the pandemic, I had to tell more than one child. Uh, and I’m gonna say, child to put on a shirt. I’m like, do you have a shirt on? And they’re like, no. And [00:30:00] I’m like, um, I’m gonna have to put that in my syllabus. Must wear clothes. Exactly. That was very, very uncomfortable. Okay, so, um, so Doc says, with, with threads, be something you’d use to take the place of Twitter convos.

[00:30:14] Mitch Goldstein: Eh, eh, I’m good. I’m good with, I think I’m good with it. I mean, I have threads, you know, I have the account, but I, I, I think that, that at the end of the day, I can give enough on Instagram and get back enough. [00:30:30] In terms of the dialogue on Instagram, where I don’t need additional places for that. I think one is good for me.

[00:30:35] Like I think I’m good with just pretty much just Instagram and I’m not honestly a huge fan of like owning my data to Facebook. I mean, they own it, you know, I’m not All right. Right. Delighted about that. But welcome to 2023. I mean, that you don’t have a lot of choices 

[00:30:47] diane: these days. Okay. So, so tell us some of your favorite dear design students.

[00:30:53] What are some of the ones that have like really captured you in your like, um, 

[00:30:58] Mitch Goldstein: I think the ones that are probably the most, [00:31:00] well, other than things that are just amusing, which I can’t recall off the top of my head, but I think that’s 

[00:31:03] diane: one of the thing that is great about you is that you, it’s your humor and it does come out, right?

[00:31:08] So it, some of it is that kind of like, um, I do, I think 

[00:31:13] Mitch Goldstein: you’re funny. Right? Thank you. I’ll take it. Thank you. Yeah, I, I, I think really the things that were most. Valuable, I’m gonna use that word kind of loosely, where the stuff really about kind of critique and things like that. Hmm. Because I think critique, it’s something like I say, oh, you’re gonna be in school and you’re [00:31:30] gonna critique.

[00:31:30] And everybody’s like, okay, cool. But they don’t really understand what that is until you’re in it. And I think that what I have learned over the years is a critique is difficult and you have to practice it and you have to get good at it. It’s not like you’re instantaneously good at it because you’re in art school.

[00:31:46] And so I think some of the stuff that I’ve been talking about with critique, which eventually rolled into, um, I ended up putting them sort of together on a website called How to, which is still live and people can go look at that. Um, and people share it all the time, which [00:32:00] is incredibly flattering and amazing.

[00:32:02] Um, which eventually honestly rolled into the book because it sort of was like, oh, this stuff is not just like I’m being funny. Like there’s something kind of going on here. And when I started realizing like this critique conversation, people were like, oh. Like, oh, I hadn’t thought of that. Or, oh, interesting point.

[00:32:18] Or, oh, no, wrong or whatever. I was like, oh, there’s something going on here. Like, like there’s something, there’s a, a need that is, I am meeting a tiny little, you know, a tiny, tiny little [00:32:30] bit. I’m giving a little bit of this need of understanding how this works. And I think especially for students who are 18 or 19 coming outta high school, especially for parents who, like, no offense to parents, but if they’re not artists or designers, art school and design school looks like a foreign and alien world.

[00:32:45] Like, it doesn’t, it doesn’t even make sense. Like, so you mean I’m gonna make stuff and then everybody’s gonna like talk about it in front of each other and tell me I’m bad And it’s like. Not exactly, but kind of. Yeah. I mean that’s kind of what we, you know, and so, uh, realizing that there was something really interesting and [00:33:00] useful in that respect, not just for me, but for other people.

[00:33:03] That was when I was like, oh, that’s where this is gonna be not just fun, but like value. I’m gonna use valuable in air quotes. Like, there’s something going on here. And that eventually sort of helped me get into the book. And that’s how the, you know, and the, the book came from Twitter. Like somebody, you know, um, this guy Paul Wagner, who, who was the design director at Princeton Architectural Press, reached out to me, and this is like five years ago, and was like, we we’re thinking about, we want you to talk about writing a book.

[00:33:28] And I’m like, who is this what [00:33:30] spam account is? You know, like, don’t screw with me. You know? And I was totally like, who is this idiot? You know? And no, Paul’s a great guy. And he Was this before tenure or after? This was before, this was before tenure. A couple years before tenure. So I think he first communicated with me and maybe I.

[00:33:46] 20 15, 16, 17, you know, in that, in that range, like it was a few years ago. It took a while to get the book kind of done. Um, but that’s when I was like, oh, so even more than what I thought this was, this is even [00:34:00] more than I real, like, oh, this is actually interesting. You know? Yeah. ’cause this guy’s not a design student anymore.

[00:34:05] He is like creative director and a major publisher. And, and, and again, it’s those moments where you’re just like, how is this happening? Like, like who, you know, who do I owe for like, letting this out? You know, how did I swing this? And, and so I guess all of this is to say that, yeah, social media can be assessed, pool of insults and garbage and bad stuff, but there are pockets of stuff that’s actually really quite interesting and quite [00:34:30] valuable.

[00:34:30] And for me, it’s been an amazing opportunity between the book, getting to talk at schools, getting to be on a podcast with you. I mean, you and I met a few years ago on Zooms because of Twitter, you know, during the pandemic and stuff. And so like, yes, there’s this toxic hell. But there’s also this really wonderful, really like beautiful thing that can happen too.

[00:34:52] Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s really pretty unbelievably great. 

[00:34:56] diane: I agree. I’m totally with you. I, um, many [00:35:00] of the people who are here, I have, um, met maybe in person. Yes. But first it was because they were here. Yeah. And they came and I know now I know everybody where everybody’s from. And I wrote you down Zoe Western Mass, and Annette and Fort Lauderdale.

[00:35:16] But everybody else I know, and some of them I have hugged and some of them I have yet to hug, but I will at some point. Right, right. Um, but they’re my friends. They’re real friends. They’re real people that show up. I just have not ever [00:35:30] hugged them. Um, yep. So, and I, but I do think that there’s something beautiful about the internet.

[00:35:35] This is what I love. Um, absolutely. Okay. So in the book, um, who. Who was it intentionally for in the beginning, the first, you know, uh, customer persona Who is, who is this book? Who did you write this for? Or who were these tweets 

[00:35:53] Mitch Goldstein: for? I, I think it was for two. It was for three people. Me. Okay. Me first. 

[00:35:58] diane: You as a 

[00:35:59] Mitch Goldstein: [00:36:00] student.

[00:36:00] Me, me, me, Mitch. Human being who, who teaches professionally and wants to understand what the hell I’m talking about on a given day. That’s the secret audience. That’s me. Uhhuh. But then really it was directed toward current or potential design students, art design students, and current or potential art and design educators.

[00:36:18] And, and really the conversation I had with the publisher. ’cause we, we, we, I got, I love that I get to say this. We took a lunch. I love that. I get to say I took a lunch with a publisher. I took a lunch, you know, you know, I drove down to Hudson Valley to their offices and we, you [00:36:30] know, we talked over lunch and I was like, look, if you want like an academic text, I am not the guy.

[00:36:36] Like do, we’re not doing that. And I said, I’m really interested in talking to students, but I also am really interested in talking to teachers. And we sort of discussed it and I said, I’d kind of like to write one book that addresses both audiences. And so what that eventually evolved into is the book is maybe 70% speaking to a student or a potential student, or even arguably the parents of a potential student and [00:37:00] 30 or 40% speaking to teachers.

[00:37:02] And so in the book, in the chapters, it’ll do some stuff and then it’ll say for teachers, comma, and then there’ll be a stuff that addresses teachers. And I decided, I. There was a moment where it was like, maybe this is actually two books. Like how to be a design student, how to be a design teacher. And I realized that, no, I don’t think we’re that separate, actually.

[00:37:18] I think that design students and teachers are maybe 95% identical, which makes no sense to most people, but I really do believe that. And so I wanted students to read the stuff I was saying to teachers, and I [00:37:30] wanted teachers to read the stuff I was saying to students. And that’s why ultimately it became one book.

[00:37:35] And, and I feel pretty good about that choice. I think that was a, you know, I have moments where I’m pretty smart occasionally, and I was like, I was like, boop, that was a, that was a good one. You know? So 

[00:37:44] diane: then for, um, ’cause I think most of the people in the chat are designers. Um, two people I don’t know yet.

[00:37:52] Well, um, so not yet, at least. So. In that Is this for, I’m thinking about Paul. Paul [00:38:00] went back to school. He as a PhD in physics, he is, had his own, uh, I can’t remember. Paul engineer, I don’t know. Anyway, he sold things and then he had to do the design for it and he fell in love with design. Then he went back and got his design degree and he is a great book designer.

[00:38:16] Mm-Hmm. And so now as a, is this for, is it at all for traditional 18 year olds or is it for, would it be for Paul [00:38:30] also? ’cause I don’t remember how old Paul was when he went back to school. But you know, like there are lots, there are other people here Mm-Hmm. That went and did their design, graphic design degree later, I would say Yes.

[00:38:42] So for both, it’s 

[00:38:43] Mitch Goldstein: not for everybody. Yeah. And I think it’s for anybody who understands that you stop learning when you die. Okay, 

[00:38:50] diane: so it’s really, that’s required for us who are absolutely practicing designers as well, because we need to keep embracing that we are still a design student. 

[00:38:58] Mitch Goldstein: Yeah, because design school [00:39:00] doesn’t just happen in design school.

[00:39:01] Amen. You know what I mean? Like design school happens every day. I would argue. Design school happens when you go to dinner with somebody you care about, or you see a movie, or you go to a show or you take a walk. That’s design school. What design school isn’t is teacher says this, you do the thing that teacher said, you hand it in and teacher gives you an A.

[00:39:18] That I think is, is basically worthless or, or mostly worthless. What is interesting is, here’s all this weird thing we call life, which nobody really understands, [00:39:30] and you as a designer, you take all this stuff and you put it in your brain and you mix it around, and then you output it into sort of visual artifacts or whatever.

[00:39:38] That’s what school is. In my opinion, you don’t do that. You don’t stop doing that until you are dead. That is when you stop being in school. And I mean that very sincerely. I’m not being funny. I really do mean that. And I think that is such an important idea that I hope I, I it’s, it’s so hard when you write a book ’cause it’s like a three year internal [00:40:00] dialogue.

[00:40:00] It is impossible for me to evaluate whether this book is any good or not at this point. But I believe that the book speaks to that idea that something I am sort of directing at a 19-year-old sophomore. Is absolutely valuable to a 50-year-old art director somewhere who, who’s interested in just being better, you know?

[00:40:18] Mm-Hmm. Now that might be bss, that might be me being very egocentric. I don’t really know, but I, I believe my, my intent was for that, my intent was not to alienate people who are [00:40:30] done with school. Like, it’s not, there’s not a chapter that says, oh, you’re graduated. You’re not allowed to read this. Right.

[00:40:35] Like, I really think is Val, there’s value for everybody. 

[00:40:38] diane: Absolutely. So Hannah and Doc both say Preach and they’re giving you the amens. Thank you. Thank you. And Daniel says a hundred percent that design school in quotes, changes on an everyday basis and Absolutely. That he’s always teaching himself new things.

[00:40:54] I actually think, especially in our field of graphic design, our field is changing all the [00:41:00] time. You have to be flexible. But there have been mastermind groups I’ve been in where there were still tears when. When people were honest and sometimes there’s a weird bug on my computer, I killed it. Hopefully nobody’s upset that I killed that bug, but I don’t want that bug yet.

[00:41:17] You 

[00:41:17] Mitch Goldstein: appreciate the sacrifice. 

[00:41:18] diane: Yeah. But, but in that, there is, it’s a really important, that critique space is something that I missed a lot after I got out of [00:41:30] school because who is gonna be that honest with me? You know, very few people. Yeah. And a client isn’t, doesn’t have the knowledge to give you the feedback or Mm-hmm.

[00:41:40] To give you the critique that you really need. Um, I know I’ve talked to Paul about this a lot, like at some point. You have gotten to learn almost everything. It may be that you can, and now you need someone to push you. Mm-Hmm. You need somebody who matches you intellectually where you are. You know how to do all the GR styles and you know [00:42:00] how to do all these other weird things and book design.

[00:42:02] Now you need someone to push you conceptually or now you need someone. And I think that that is where there’s value in groups. Even if everybody doesn’t always come from the same um, area or the same, that actually can make it better because they see things in a new way. And, and I love, this is what I at VCU, which I graduated from there in 2001.

[00:42:28] Yeah. I don’t know when you [00:42:30] graduated 

[00:42:30] Mitch Goldstein: four eight. Yeah, I was 2012. 

[00:42:32] diane: I think way before you, way before. I’m got my walker over there. Anyway. But it, but I remember John Malinowski was one of our teachers. One of your te He’s my favorite. He was, and he, he, you said that like he was 

[00:42:47] Mitch Goldstein: No, no, no. He’s great. John was amazing.

[00:42:49] He’s awesome. 

[00:42:49] diane: Yep. Okay. But he did not sugarcoat anything. Nope. And I was so glad ’cause I’m like such a, like a, okay, you want me to do this? Okay. Yeah. And [00:43:00] I remember thinking, I don’t know what all these other people know. I, you know, maybe it’s Mm-Hmm. It’s ’cause I went to school in Alabama. I dunno, maybe, you know what did they teach us this at Auburn?

[00:43:12] Um, and maybe I just missed that part. Who knows? But Right. My professors were awesome. I love my professors at Auburn, but I remember saying, you know what? I don’t care if I look like an idiot. And you’ve said this as well, you’ve said this earlier today. Mm-Hmm. In our conversation, [00:43:30] I want to learn more than I want to look.

[00:43:33] Correct. Uh, and I remember Malinowski saying, who knows, blah blah designer. And I’m like, not me. Uh, or yeah. He was like, who doesn’t know? Blah blah designer. I literally was the only one that would raise my hand. And I was like, I, well, I’m the one, could you please tell me? And he said to me as I graduated, he was like, Diane, nobody else knew.

[00:43:57] Or maybe not all, not all of them, but you were [00:44:00] the only one that would raise your hand. And he’s like, I will miss that. And I so appreciated him saying that to me. That sometimes it’s about how much, Hey, there’s Megan D um, how much do 

[00:44:12] Mitch Goldstein: you wanna, oh, you know Megan DI 

[00:44:14] diane: know. How much do you, Hey Megan. D do you want to learn?

[00:44:18] And I think that exactly at, I know most of these people over here, and Maya is my new friend in Norway. She is always watching things on YouTube, learning things. We’re talking about things. She’s an [00:44:30] incredible artist. And it’s like. This is when, um, when we can continue to learn and then we can share.

[00:44:40] That’s why I love YouTube. I love putting, um, the podcast out on YouTube, but we are, but we are actually, we get stronger and better the more we rub up against me and Dee been in many groups together and I’m, she’s always teaching me new things and when she’s excited about algae ink or, [00:45:00] oh, I have a joke.

[00:45:01] Are you ready? It’s has to do with algae. I’m okay. It’s total dad joke. D you can use this anytime. Okay. What kind of bra does a mermaid wear? Go, go on algebra. Get it anyway. It’s really bad. I know the 80 D is kicking in real hard ’cause I just took my medicine. 

[00:45:24] Mitch Goldstein: That is gonna be permanently on record. Just so you know, that’s in the ether now.

[00:45:28] My, my 

[00:45:29] diane: dad sent [00:45:30] it to me the other day. But, but in this, I just think that we are always, um, we’re, we’re always learning. We are, um, but we learn better when we actually are vulnerable. Exactly. And can say, Hey, I don’t know. Could you teach me? Mm-Hmm. And so many of us are either lonely only like Amy Lyon, she’s an awesome designer, awesome illustrator.

[00:45:56] And I have seen her grow over so many years because we’ve [00:46:00] been friends for 12 years. I’ve seen her illustrations go from here to amazing. Mm-Hmm. You know, because she kept working on it and she continues to keep working on it. Same thing. It’s like if we’re not, if we’re not trying to get better, but most people spend maybe four years in school trying to get better or trying to learn, and then they think that they don’t have.

[00:46:25] I think we think we’re supposed to have it together. Right. And we’re not supposed to be so curious, [00:46:30] or we have to do that on our own. And there isn’t as much of a space in, um, regular offices or, Mm-Hmm. Desire, you know, it’s like you gotta know what, but we always have to keep learning anyway. 

[00:46:45] Mitch Goldstein: Well, so here’s the thing about, I agree with you, obviously, I, I mean, I’ve built my career on agreeing with you on that.

[00:46:51] I will say there is nothing wrong with going to school for four years, getting your degree, showing up at nine, doing [00:47:00] your job, and at five o’clock you go home to your family. Absolutely. That is a phenomenally valid, excellent way to do this work. 50 weeks a year, work 40 hours a week or whatever, you know, you don’t have to care as much as you and I do.

[00:47:14] To, to be legitimate as a designer. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you can have this job where you don’t have to have manual labor where you’re not being sort of crapped on by your superiors and you get to go in, into an office, make stuff and go home and spend time with your family and [00:47:30] spend all day Saturday and Sunday with your kids, I think that’s incredible.

[00:47:33] Like, I don’t dismiss that in the, I think that’s a phenomenal life that you can have. Personally, for me personally, it wasn’t enough. I wanted more, but I, I’m always quick to, to, you know, to, to sort of, I, I, there’s this, um, I think a lot of what spurred some of my more snarky Twitter stuff was basically the sort of arrogance of designers in a lot of ways.

[00:47:55] Mm-Hmm. And, um, I think the way I’ve always referred to it as we are, um, [00:48:00] arrogantly insecure, you know, like we are so full of ourselves, but the second. Like, like somebody suggests we work for free. We’re like, oh my God, how dare you? You know? And it’s just, it’s ridiculous, right? There’s nothing wrong with having a job where you flow stuff into InDesign and at 5:01 PM you don’t care anymore.

[00:48:18] And at 9:00 AM the next day you do care. That is totally awesome. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes I wish I had that life ’cause my brain just will not shut up. And it really drives me nuts sometimes. Right? Um, [00:48:30] having said all of that, obviously my practice, the book, what I write about blah, blah, blah, is all geared to the people who are really maybe a little more in it, sort of in, in an esoteric way.

[00:48:40] But I, I think at the end of the day, the book is more about an approach than anything else. It’s not how to do X, Y, Z, you know what I mean? It’s really like, here’s how you could approach. Education, here’s how you can approach sort of understanding how this stuff works. And, and at the end of the day, for me personally, I call it [00:49:00] applied curiosity.

[00:49:01] It’s not just being curious, it’s being applied in my curiosity. It’s making stuff, it’s doing things. It’s actively participating. Um, and that is where I live personally. Mm-Hmm. And I’m not gonna tell you that’s the best place to live. I’m gonna tell you that’s where I live. And that for me, often that works.

[00:49:18] Sometimes it’s a nightmare, but often that works pretty well. And, and so I think really that’s kind of where I’m at with this is, is here’s my view. And, and, and I’ve, some of the comments I’ve gotten about the book are people like, well, you sort of [00:49:30] played both sides a little bit. And I’m like, yeah, because I don’t think I’m inherently more correct than someone else.

[00:49:36] Mm. I just have my opinions, which are informed and. I believe valid and I believe legitimate, but that doesn’t mean somebody else is inherently incorrect. It’s just a different attitude. Mm-Hmm. And I don’t like saying dismissing people. I don’t like saying no incorrect, wrong. I don’t really like words like right and wrong or Yes and no.

[00:49:56] I, I, I, it’s too, it’s too, it’s too [00:50:00] ambiguous and gray, which is why it is so interesting because it is so ambiguous and gray and kind of anything goes if you want it to. And I love that. You know, I love that. And, and, and I think that my experience in grad school, both at VCU and at, at RIT, my experience in undergrad, it just constantly revalidated that, that, that, that it’s, it’s this weird thing.

[00:50:24] Nobody really understands it, but we all kind of understand it. So let’s just go. [00:50:30] Let’s just go, let’s go a hundred miles an hour in, let’s not tiptoe, let’s go. And I think for me, that’s how I have to do it. I don’t know another way to do it. Well, and I think that, and that might not be good, but that is just, 

[00:50:43] diane: I think that a lot of it things have to do with audience, right?

[00:50:47] If I’m designing one thing that could be right for one audience, but it could be terrible for another audience if it depends on who I was designing for. And you always have to kind of keep that in mind. [00:51:00] For me, that’s, there’s exactly those. The, so what are some, and this may be some more funny things, um, but it doesn’t have to be what Mm-Hmm.

[00:51:08] What are some of your pet peeves in regards to students who are studying design? 

[00:51:14] Mitch Goldstein: Um, my biggest pet peeve is constantly and endlessly comparing themselves to either each other. Or to some sort of design hero who’s got like a 40 year career. I constantly, constantly hear students going, oh my God, did you see XY Zs?[00:51:30] 

[00:51:30] I’ll never get, and I’m like, talk to me in 40 years and we’ll see where you’re at because you might be surprised. So that’s the number one thing for me, is the students like defeating themselves by constantly comparing themselves to each other, which I understand that’s like, welcome to life, like you’re gonna do that for the rest of your life.

[00:51:47] But it’s a bad toxic thing to do. And, and by saying, oh, you know, my, my, um, you know, my friend or this person I’m in class with got an interview at x, Y, Z and I didn’t. I suck? No, [00:52:00] you do not suck. This person was just slightly better at getting this one specific interview. Doesn’t mean they’re a better designer, doesn’t mean they’re a better interviewer.

[00:52:09] It does. All it means is this one specific moment. They were maybe a slightly ahead of you, but that doesn’t mean you lose, right. I think there’s this attitude in design school and, and again, I’m not speaking specifically about RIT, I’m speaking about broadly speaking design schools, that there are this, there’s this like elite set of jobs or, or studios, Whedon Kennedy, apple [00:52:30] alphabet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:52:32] And if you get those jobs, you won design school like you win. And everybody else who works in Oklahoma lost. And I think that is just the most absurd pile of bulk I’ve ever heard. Sorry, I hope I’m swearing. Is it okay? It’s just such garbage. 

[00:52:46] diane: My mom’s dead. It’s, yeah, 

[00:52:48] Mitch Goldstein: it’s, we’ll, we’ll cut it. It’s so dumb because what does it do?

[00:52:52] It makes everybody 10 times more stressed out. It makes everybody get super competitive with each other. Uh, my experience at RISD was incredible except [00:53:00] spring semester of senior year. Wow. Like, everybody got hyper competitive with each other, and there was all sorts of very casual. I, I distinctly remember conversations with people going, oh, how was your weekend?

[00:53:11] And they’re like, oh, I’m so tired. I had so many interviews at Pentagram. And it’s like, oh man, off a little bit. Like, I don’t need, like what are you telling me with that? I don’t care like that. What does that. Am I supposed to be impressed by that? Stuff like that drives me a, and I actually lecture to my seniors about this.

[00:53:28] Like we have a talk about this where I’m like, look, [00:53:30] you guys need to understand something. And I say to them, look to your left and right. And I’m like, this is your first professional network. Oh yeah. Like you can’t be jerks to each other. Not only because you should just not be a horrible human being in general, but in addition to that, these people, 10 years from now, you never know who might be either giving you or not giving you a job.

[00:53:50] Yeah. And my experience of being a designer and being in the community is that jobs come from other designers all the time. And if I have something I can’t do or I don’t want to do, I don’t have time to do or I [00:54:00] can’t afford to do, I’m not gonna tell the client. I’m gonna say, wait, I know somebody. And I think people forget that.

[00:54:06] And that doesn’t mean you have to be like strategic and tactical and lie to your friends. It just means that there’s no reason to not be a good human being. And I think if you’re just like a good person, like, like good things. I know this sounds so stupid to say out loud, but I think that. Good things beget good things generally, not always, not all the time, but often.

[00:54:26] And so for me, I just want us to be a little bit kinder [00:54:30] to each other as like designers and human beings. And, and I’m hoping, I, I believe that my tone on social in the past and currently is I can poke fun, but I’m not mean. I’m not really, I’m mean to Adobe. ’cause Adobe deserves to be mean. But other than that, I’m not like mean to people.

[00:54:51] I’d never wanna literally say to a person, this design you made sucks. And call that out. I would never do that. I will tease a giant corporation that spent [00:55:00] $3 million on a horrible logo because they deserve to be made fun of, but not an individual human being. And that’s always a line that I drew. I am not, I don’t want to belittle somebody.

[00:55:10] I don’t want to dismiss somebody. I don’t want to do that. There’s enough of that in the world. I make art and design like we’re not in the business of life and death here. Like we need to calm down. And just enjoy that we get to do this for a living, you know? So again, that’s kind of my broad approach, I would 

[00:55:24] diane: say.

[00:55:24] And Megan says, true. It’s bad to compare, compare for better or worse. Sometimes students are like, I just have to be [00:55:30] better than Judy. Uh, and then they don’t push themselves as much as they could. And then at other times, they beat themselves up because they aren’t in the same place as Judy because, or they’re not the same level.

[00:55:41] Right. Yeah. I just made up Judy. I don’t know, Judy. Um, okay. So are there any pet peeves that you have that maybe aren’t in the book, that are just student related? And it could be just about, maybe it’s the, maybe it’s not necessarily student, but it’s those designers who [00:56:00] think that they don’t have to learn anymore.

[00:56:02] Maybe. 

[00:56:03] Mitch Goldstein: I, I think that there is a, um, I mean, nothing specific really. I, I, again, I try not to be a very negative person, broadly speaking, but I, I just wish that. Some of the arrogance and the elitism would just go away. Mm-Hmm. And I do feel like it’s getting there. I think people are starting to be hip to the fact that maybe being full of ourselves isn’t really that awesome.

[00:56:25] Like that’s not great. I 

[00:56:26] do 

[00:56:26] diane: think our generation is, it’s better and I think it’s [00:56:30] better. Yeah. I think we’re getting there 

[00:56:30] Mitch Goldstein: than it was maybe. And so I think that understanding that, that there are so many different people on the planet, different backgrounds, different lives, different understandings, different educations different, you know, different everything times infinity.

[00:56:43] That just because you think something doesn’t necessarily mean you are right. I. Or that is even about right or wrong, it’s your approach. And so I think you should a believe in what you say, but also understand other people can be right too. Yeah. And I think you do both [00:57:00] of those things and know that one could change your mind.

[00:57:02] Yeah, exactly. All 

[00:57:04] diane: right. So what do you love most about teaching? So from undergrad at risd, there was something that happened. I don’t know if there was a teacher or if it was just like, this makes sense. What? So what was it that pulled you in? And then what do you love? 

[00:57:21] Mitch Goldstein: It’s the best job in the world. I don’t say that lightly.

[00:57:24] I’ve had a lot of jobs, so I’m not saying that casually it is the best job in [00:57:30] the world with one notable exception, which is I’m never gonna get rich teaching. Right. And I accepted that on day one. I am comfortable. I get paid a very fair salary. I have no complaints, but I, but wealth is not gonna be a conversation I’m gonna be involved in.

[00:57:46] Once I accepted that, it is the great, I am paid to be professionally curious about stuff and to talk about how curious I am with other people who are also [00:58:00] professionally curious. 

[00:58:00] diane: Okay. So what about students? That’s the best job in the world. So what do you love about actually getting somebody to that next level or taking somebody?

[00:58:12] Because I would think some of our students wouldn’t think of themselves as professionally curious yet. 

[00:58:18] Mitch Goldstein: Maybe. I mean, I love everything about it. Like, I can’t answer that question. I love all of it. There are these moments I call ’em holy shit moments. Yay. And I personally have had a number of them over the years, but it’s like once a semester.

[00:58:28] Twice a [00:58:30] semester maybe. Doesn’t mean the rest of the semester was worthless. It was valuable. But there are these moments where your worldview changes and you understand something or see something and you’re just like, holy, what? Like how? And I’ve had a few of those moments and so on. The, I, I hope this is true.

[00:58:47] I can’t prove it. I believe I have helped initiate that for some students over the years. And every once in a while you see a student, you say something to your student and they’re like, what? And I’m like, yeah. And they’re like, really? And I’m like, yeah. [00:59:00] And that is like, yeah. Like yes. Like, yeah. Like that’s what it’s about.

[00:59:05] And it isn’t about me being validated or them 10 years from now getting an A IGA award and crediting. I don’t care about any of that stuff. That is not, it’s not about me, but like, getting to see that, like, that like, woo, like the brain also goes, it starts, it’s, it’s like. I can’t even explain how satisfying that is as a human being.

[00:59:25] It’s just such a wonderful thing to like get to do that for somebody or to help somebody [00:59:30] achieve those moments. It’s, it’s in incre. I can’t even make words like it’s the most unbelievable thing on the planet. And, and, and that’s, and it’s so worth it. Like, I mean, it’s a job. I love working people think work is like a bad word.

[00:59:43] I love the word work. I love to work. I love it that I have a job. I love having to go somewhere. I hate summer. I hate summer. I want to teach all year. I hate it. Gimme two weeks off here and there and I’m good. Um, but like the fact that I get to be this person who is [01:00:00] making a living, helping people be more awesome.

[01:00:04] Hmm. But in like a really real way, not in a BSS like life coachy way, but in a real way is. It’s unreal. It’s, I can’t verbalize it to you. I, it’s unbelievable that that’s a thing that exists. Mm-Hmm. And I cannot believe I get to do that. And I’m not facetiously saying that I cannot believe I get to do this for a living.

[01:00:26] Okay. So when, 

[01:00:27] diane: when is the right time to 

[01:00:29] Mitch Goldstein: [01:00:30] retire? Um, I would say just before I’m dead. And I mean, like an hour or two, like, not years. I mean a couple hours. Um, it’s funny, I actually had a chat with my, um, accountant, which by the way, you all should have a good accountant in my opinion. Um, and we were talking about my retirement stuff and just looking at my 401k and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:00:51] And he’s like, so you wanna retire when you’re like 62, 65? And I’m like, I don’t wanna, why would I wanna retire? And he is like, what are you talking about? And I’m like, what are you [01:01:00] talking about? Why would I want to not do this? Hmm. Like, he’s like, are you outta outta your mind? And I’m like, are you outta your mind?

[01:01:06] Like, what are you talking about? I’m like, I’m gonna retire when I’m physically incapable of speaking. So the idea of like sitting on a beach when I’m old, if it’s a beach in like Amsterdam where there’s a design school, I could teach it. That would be cool. But beyond that, you know what I’m saying? Like, I don’t wanna ever not do this.

[01:01:23] Mm-Hmm. I am compelled to do this. Like I don’t have a choice. Mm-Hmm. And again, this being a lot [01:01:30] of various things, but like, I don’t have a choice to not do this. Um, I have a hard time after like week two of winter break. I can’t even comprehend year four of, I can’t even wrap my mind around what that would look like.

[01:01:43] There’s no way in hell I’m ever gonna do that. I hope if I am lucky, I’m healthy enough and physically capable of communicating and doing this. But like retirement is not a co. I have no interest in that at all. Now, who knows, maybe when I’m 90 I’ll be, I’ll feel differently, but I can’t even. [01:02:00] Fathom what that looks like.

[01:02:01] You know, my, my, my dad, I love him dearly. He, uh, was a salesperson his whole life. Um, and then he and my stepmother moved down to Florida and they’re living this like Seinfeld condo life, you know, like Morty Seinfeld, right? And they love it. And they’re like, you’ve gotta come down and see it. And I’m like, I definitely wanna see it.

[01:02:21] He’s like, you might be surprised. I’m like, no, no, no. I am ne that is not gonna be where I’m not, that’s not what I’m gonna go do. And I’m like, it’s amazing. You love it. It’s [01:02:30] awesome. Love it, enjoy it. But like, I’m good. Like, that is not who I’m gonna be. And I, and I think that just kind of knowing that, again, it doesn’t mean I’ll make anything good.

[01:02:39] I might suck when I’m 90 or whatever, but I’m willing to go there. Like, I’m willing to do that. I think that’s kind of who I am. I, I can’t handle not having something to do. I’m just not good. I’m really bad at relaxing. It’s actually a problem. I’m really, I’m 

[01:02:53] diane: bad at relaxing too. I wonder if that’s a, a trait either of professors or of designers.

[01:02:59] [01:03:00] Because Lord, 

[01:03:00] Mitch Goldstein: my husband, I tried to take a day off. Yeah, I try. I was like, I am taking a day off on Saturday. I am gonna like not get dressed. I’m gonna watch Netflix or whatever. Uh, you know, I like doing jigsaw puzzle. I’ll do a jigsaw puzzle and by the end of the day I was like, this day kind of sucked.

[01:03:15] Like, I wish I would’ve done something. This wasn’t relaxing at all. And like, I’m not bragging like it’s a problem. Like I talked to my therapist about that. Like, it’s a problem, but it’s just who I am. And I think one of my favorite things about getting older is [01:03:30] not caring what other people have to say about me.

[01:03:32] More and more every year. It’s kind of just like, this is who I am. Take it, leave it, whatever. 

[01:03:37] diane: I love that. Okay. So I wanna at least if you have time for I have time, another five minute question. So one thing I love, um. Paul says, I get that about relaxing. Yeah. My idea of a vacation is quiet time. Exactly When I can work.

[01:03:52] Amen Paul. 

[01:03:53] Mitch Goldstein: Amen to that, Paul. 

[01:03:54] diane: Yeah. I am there. It’s like, oh, that’s just uninterrupted time. Mm-Hmm. When my husband’s not gonna keep coming [01:04:00] in and making this noise at the door that he makes like my dog or something. But, um, okay. So I wanna ask you what’s next, but I also wanna ask you about this hybrid practice.

[01:04:10] I think Maura will, will also really like this. ’cause she’s also a graphic designer, but she’s also industrial and she loves furniture. Mm-Hmm. So I’m asking this one for you, Maura. Hopefully this is good. Um, but you love to learn. You’ve got your degree in for another, uh, master’s in furniture design. And you told us what a, you know, furniture was kind of like the [01:04:30] itch that wasn’t, uh, architecture and you’re really, it’s this hybrid, um, uh, practice.

[01:04:38] Right? Can you talk about it a little bit? Um. About what you see it being and how it can work. 

[01:04:48] Mitch Goldstein: So, that’s a really good question. And I’m not being cagey. I don’t quite know how to answer it, but I will try. I think, and I’m gonna say this real loosely, I think that at the end of the [01:05:00] day, all of these things I’ve learned between, I used to do a lot of dark room photography, graphic design, furniture, you know, fine art sculpture.

[01:05:08] I’ve been in galleries, I’ve written a book, all this stuff. 

[01:05:11] diane: I’ve been in galleries. I hadn’t had my 

[01:05:13] Mitch Goldstein: work in there. I’ve been lucky enough to be in a couple gallery shows, you know, and, and I’ve sold a little bit of work, not a lot, but here and there. I think at the end of the day, all of this comes down to me handling my existence as a human being.

[01:05:27] Mm-Hmm. And I think that’s what all artists do. [01:05:30] But I am doing it in a way that I think, the way that I’ve kind of quantified it, verbalized it, whatever I. Is that, um, the title of my furniture thesis was when it Clicks because it was this idea. I really like jigsaw puzzles. Love ’em. I almost don’t like 40 or 50.

[01:05:48] I’m gonna start donating them ’cause I have too many. And the reason why I love it is it is about that moment when you find the piece in it clicks and it goes, and that moment the world makes sense to me. [01:06:00] My existence as a person makes sense to me. And so I think what my work is about is that, is understanding where I sit in the world because I’m an anxious person.

[01:06:09] I suffer from anxiety, I have some depression. I’m on medication, I’m in therapy. Like I’m as messed up as anybody else is. Right? I don’t even think it’s messed up. I think it’s just human being like that’s what a person is. Yes. And so for me, the work is making these moments where stuff goes, oh, that makes sense.

[01:06:24] Oh, I understand that connection between those two things. And so a lot of my work [01:06:30] aesthetically is very fragmented and very angular. But what it really is, is all of this sort of chaotic stuff where these moments of understanding live through it again. And I mean literally like visual moments of stuff kind of connecting.

[01:06:42] And so I think that ultimately what my hybrid practice is, is me just understanding how to be a person. Hmm. The way I do that, in addition to like, you know, having a partner and friends and blah, blah, blah, is to just like understand how I sit in the world. And so I believe what my practice is [01:07:00] about is making those moments of clarification.

[01:07:02] Like Legos like, like Hannah just said, Legos, I love Legos, but what I don’t love is here’s a bucket of Legos. Go make something. I hate that. What I love is here is the Millennium Falcon Lego set and here’s a 90 page instruction booklet. Go through it and put this together. I love that. My creativity.

[01:07:21] Doesn’t sit aside beside my relaxation, it sits opposite of it in a way. And so I sort of have both sides of [01:07:30] Mitch. There’s the Mitch who really likes the chaos and the ambiguity. But then there’s the Mitch who really, really likes, like Morris said, parameters. Mm-Hmm. Like I like hard edges on stuff.

[01:07:39] Almost more as a therapeutic idea than about really making art. Exactly. And that’s why, to me, a jigsaw puzzle isn’t just, I’m bored. It’s calm down. It’s, yeah. It’s like I’m gonna take a moment and when these pieces click together, I get, it’s a little moment, but I’m just like, ah. And I think, and [01:08:00] this all might be bss, but I think that is where my work is going.

[01:08:03] I think that’s why I make what I make. I think that’s why I work the way I work. I try to work kind of very randomly and chaotically and very chancy and you know, Megan saw my work at grad school. She would verify that, you know, my stuff was kinda all over the place. And I think that is why. Because that is how I sort of perceive my existence in the planet as this world.

[01:08:21] I mean, we’re not even gonna get into what’s going on right now in the world. It is like so beyond understanding to me as just a person, like I can’t [01:08:30] understand it, but you know what? When the puzzle please clicks in, it’s like, okay, I’m good. Like I have five seconds where I’m good. And so ultimately I think that’s what my work is about.

[01:08:38] So I know that was like an extremely 

[01:08:39] diane: long Oh, I love that. I love 

[01:08:41] Mitch Goldstein: that answer. But I think that’s what it’s about. And so I think where it’s going in a more practical answer, I really am interested in smushing all this stuff together. I’m really interested in what happens if I bring wood into a dark room or what happens if I develop.

[01:08:56] I put photo emulsion on a piece of furniture and develop it. Or if I [01:09:00] make a collage out of old pho, you know, or any number of things where stuff just mushes into each other. And that’s kind of where I’m at now. Having said all that, talk to me in two years and I will tell you if that was all BSS or not, I’m still, 

[01:09:12] diane: I’m gonna get you back on in two years.

[01:09:13] Yeah. You’re gonna show us stuff that is, we gotta see where I’m 

[01:09:16] Mitch Goldstein: going with this. We’re see. But that’s 

[01:09:17] diane: my theory. We’re I wanna I love that though. Um, so what’s next is that you don’t wanna take summers. Nope. And you wanna die teaching. Yep. And, um, [01:09:30] uh, you’re melding things together and I love this. So understanding the connection between maybe seemingly unrelated things.

[01:09:39] Mm-Hmm. And it makes sense in life. It’s how you fit into the world. It’s also, so I love, I. Beautiful. Great. Thank you. Great way. I wanna make sure everybody knows, um, how to get in touch with you or how to follow you. So I’m gonna copy this and I’m gonna paste it in the chat. If you’re watching on YouTube and this isn’t live, um, they are at the top [01:10:00] of the YouTube thing.

[01:10:01] If you’re listening on your. iPod, who even has an iPod? What’s an iPod? Yeah. Um, for you young people. That’s how we started. Um, it it’s at the top of your, wherever your podcasts are. Yeah, it’s right at the top. And then underneath that, there’s a couple other links. One I want, doc’s not here anymore, but we are still, uh, raising money for the Tatas.

[01:10:24] His wife has breast cancer again, and we are gonna save [01:10:30] Julie Reed. Um, and if you wanna give to that, she’s going at it from a different angle and the different angle isn’t always covered by regular Yep. Insurance. So if you want to help raise money, um, for them, they have three little girls and 3, 3, 3, right.

[01:10:47] Amy? Amy, three. Um, I’m asking Amy to respond, um, but it is GoFund. Um, let me read Mitch’s first. Mitch, M-I-T-C-H. Goldstein, [01:11:00] G-O-L-D-S-T-E-I That is where you can get the book information on most social medias. Um, this is how you are M-G-O-L-D-S-T. Yep. On Instagram. So MI don’t, I think I’m saying anyway, I think I say the letter.

[01:11:17] M bunny M gold M Yeah. M gold stuff. And then if you wanted check out at RIT, it’s r, which is Rochester Institute of Technology. Mm-Hmm. Slash shop. [01:11:30] Shop one. I was like show pony. Um, anyway, I’m a terrible reader. Uh, S-H-O-P-O-N-E slash artists with an s slash mitchen Goldstein. And that’s where his work is for sale.

[01:11:45] And then, uh, they have four girls. I knew it. I knew I was missing Hazel. It was Hazel. Hazel’s the baby, I believe. Anyway, my nose is running. Um, then I also just wanna remind you. That me and Hannah and Paul already started, but I hadn’t seen [01:12:00] yours. Paul, I need to see it. Maura, I’ve seen some, um, Hannah has been doing it with me.

[01:12:06] Uh, Dee you said you were gonna do it. Everybody in here. I would love to see you do Imagine number with me. So, Mitch, if you didn’t know, I have changed November. It is no longer called November. It is called imaginable, and I think all month long we all need to exercise our imaginations. I actually believe that.

[01:12:25] We think that it’s for kids and I don’t Mm-Hmm. I actually think this is, uh, [01:12:30] something we need to get over that it’s, ’cause I hear this a lot. Oh, I’ll do this with my kids. I was like, actually, I think you need to do it. Do it for you, not your kids. Yeah. Because we need to look at things and we are solving problems and it has been so much fun.

[01:12:44] Okay. If you go, so Maya, you just asked, so if you see, if you go to um, creatives It’s I-M-A-G-I-N-E-M-B-E-R dash 2023. You can [01:13:00] sign up at the bottom. It’s a workout for your imagination. And this last year we did blobs and it was super fun. This year we’re doing all these Unsplash images.

[01:13:10] So I pulled images off of Unsplash and you get to, um, make things from furniture. So you get, I can’t see myself ’cause I have the chat over me. Um, but you get something like this, like a nice little, and they start off easy and they get harder. Paul and I were talking, he’s like this look a [01:13:30] book DI just need, I can combine this, but these are ones I did.

[01:13:33] Now I’m just doing it physically, but I think Hannah is doing it digitally. I also give you an option. So see I made a face. Mm-Hmm. Somebody else. Sophie. She’s 10. I think she’s 10. She made it into a, um, um, a shark. Her dad made it into a frog. Um. Uh, week one is on the iPad. Uh, Marie Morris says, but they get harder as they go.

[01:13:59] And [01:14:00] they are, I think it’s really fun. So I’m gonna show you the one that, um, I mean, and everybody sees different things and the people who are doing it on the iPad can zoom in more and can see things. It’s kind of making me jealous that I should get my iPad out. But here, this was one we did. I don’t remember what day, but I was like, who puts a black painted canvas?

[01:14:21] That’s it. That’s what I was like, well, we’re drawing all over it. Some people, Carol record, man, she went all over the place. I made a kitty and, [01:14:30] um, and I put some pink glitter Nice. Uh, for his nose. I mean, you know, people, I mean, I made something with the little guy. Uh, I think Hannah and Sophie and Harrison, um, made something with this.

[01:14:46] Mm-Hmm. Whole thing, right? I mean, it, it is so much fun. Please. Oh my gosh, guys. Yeah. That’s amazing. Love it. This has been, I mean, ins they get harder, I think. 

[01:14:56] Mitch Goldstein: Yeah. But just always be making, that’s it. And even always [01:15:00] be making, 

[01:15:00] diane: and it’s the, uh, for, I think about Paul, Paul’s like, I can’t draw, but Paul can draw.

[01:15:05] And sometimes it’s just two dots and a smile, you know? It’s just, it’s little things. So. Mm-Hmm. Let’s save Julie Reed. Let’s follow Mitch. And, um, and then let’s, let’s exercise our imagination. And you can start any time. It does not. Hell yes. You don’t have to do it, but there are 42 days of papers so that you can go in and.

[01:15:28] He can print ’em out. Or when [01:15:30] you get that first email, there’s a zip file. You can download it and do it on your iPad. Like Hannah’s doing it. Mm-Hmm. So it’s, it has been really fun. And Paul, I noticed that I have not seen any of yours. You can just text me. So no pressure your images, if you don’t wanna put it on Instagram.

[01:15:44] But I wanna see y’all’s, like, I wanna have a big thing where we’re coming together, talking about it. Next week I’m at my dad’s, so we’re not gonna do, um, the podcast next week. But then the next week, um, was right before Thanksgiving. And I’m gonna talk about [01:16:00] imagining, I’m gonna show you some stuff. So if you’ve been posting stuff, I’m gonna ask you to send me some images.

[01:16:05] I’ll put a Google Drive awesome. Together, but it’s gonna be fun. So that’s great. Mitch, thank you for being here. Thank you for being so full of energy and sharing your love of teaching, sharing your love of design, and just being creative. I am gonna connect you with my friend Chris Martin. ’cause he’s all about curiosity too.

[01:16:23] And you can be on his podcast. Not that I can control what’s on his podcast. It would be an honor. Absolutely. But I would love to connect you with [01:16:30] him. So Chris, um, I’m connecting you and 

[01:16:33] Mitch Goldstein: yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It’s great to see you again. Thanks to everybody in the chat. It, it’s just so great.

[01:16:38] I, I love doing stuff like this, so thank you for 

[01:16:40] diane: even listening. Well, you do great. So, and I can’t wait so we can get the book. Only on your website or can we get the book in way? Do you mean 

[01:16:47] Mitch Goldstein: this book? Yeah, I mean that book everywhere you buy books. So Amazon, um, independent bookstores, you know, all the, all the normal retail places.

[01:16:55] Awesome. So hold it up. So third, the price on a Kindle. 

[01:16:57] diane: Okay. How to be a graph [01:17:00] a no. How to be a design student. Yep. Okay. I love it. And he designed the whole thing, so I did the whole thing. Alright, 

[01:17:07] Mitch Goldstein: great. There’s words inside. Yeah, it’s like a book. That’s awesome. 

[01:17:12] diane: Alright, well I will see you guys in two weeks, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and I’m gonna talk about Imagin number.

[01:17:19] And Mitch, I hope see you again soon and in two years you’re back on showing me absolutely everything 

[01:17:23] Mitch Goldstein: you’ve done. Thanks, everybody in the chat. Good to see y’all. Thank you so much. Bye bye.[01:17:30] 

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