Sparking Creativity with Barry Kudrowitz

This week I talk to Barry Kudrowitz about the intersection of play, humor, and creativity. Who are the most creative thinkers? Are you one of them? How often are you playing to come up with new ideas or uses for your products or services (or your customers’ products and services?)

What are the best tools and games to help you think more creatively? What does thinking creatively really mean?

How does our imagination set the stage for what becomes reality? We will talk about a lot of things. This will be a fun episode. This book is a keeper!

I hope you will join me for Episode 449, LIVE on WEDNESDAY, Sept 27, 2023 at 11:30am PT / 2:30pm ET / 7:30pm BST / 8:30am in Hawaii

You can be part of the conversation live with us. Simply join the Creatives Ignite Family by giving me your email and get a reminder email 30 min before the show: You can also add it to your calendar so you don’t miss it. (Those links are in the emails). See you there, then you can type in the chat and ask questions live.

Or Listen here


  1. Barry, can you tell everybody a little background about you, who you are, where you are, and what you do? 
  2. What got you interested in studying play & humor and their connection to creativity?
  3. Imagination and cultivating imagination is important in future inventions and progress. What we once saw as totally unrealistic is now possible (talking to someone in another country face to face). How do these ridiculous ideas and crazy concepts actually lead us to innovation and development?
  4. How have cartoons been a prediction for the future?
  5. How can we best cultivate these big dreams and concepts better in our creative businesses?
  6. If you were trying to tell someone who is a professional creative (illustrator, designer, writer) how your book is best used in their regular creative practice what would you tell them?
  7. You studied the connection of improv and creativity, what was the top 3 things you gleaned that you regularly return to in your creative practice?
  8. In the Humor, Creativity, and Innovation section you talk about how important humor is to relieve stress and tension. You shared some insight about how laughter is often a social lubricant helping people to freely disclose information (sometimes without knowing it). This was insightful on building relationships. Were there other insights about the power of humor you uncovered?
  9. How do you use this in your teaching?
  10. What’s next for you?

Connect with Barry

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Workshop Next Week, Want to Join?

Monday, Oct 2, 1:30pm ET / 10:30am PT / 6:30pm BST

Content Creation, Content Strategy, and a Content Calendar. If thinking about these starts the cortisol (stress hormone) flowing you are not alone. This 2-hour workshop is $97. You can sign up today:

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This workshop will give you time to sift through topics important to your clients and customers, where you can guide them overcome those obstacles. How do your values align with your customer’s values? What are two to three areas your expertise can help them get past the challenge they are currently facing.

Does creating a content calendar really make a difference? What if you don’t know what you should share or what you should be talking about? No worries these creative reps that Mario puts us through will leave you with a plan you can follow and implement.

Transcript of Sparking Creativity with Barry Kudrowitz

[00:00:00] diane: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Creatives Ignite. I am here with a new friend, Barry Kedrowitz. He is in Minneapolis, so he can be friends with Paul. Paul’s also in Minneapolis. This is live. You guys can always know you can join us, but we’re going to be talking about this. book. This is his book.

[00:00:21] It is packed with fun things to do, but it’s also really interesting and how creative thinkers think. A lot of us, [00:00:30] um, maybe are solopreneurs and we work alone, so we’re always looking for ways to sharpen those creative blades. And he gives us some really good, um, games to play. We’re going to talk about some of those things to do, but also how humor makes a huge difference.

[00:00:45] And I, of course, really like That because I like to laugh, don’t y’all do you like to laugh, Barry, right? But I, yeah, so you’re in Minneapolis, um, you’re a professor, you’re now chair, [00:01:00] or you’ve been chair for a while, but tell them a little bit about your background. And, um, and then I’ll ask you, I just, where you are, what you do.

[00:01:10] And then I’ll ask you how you got into interested in studying about play and humor and 

[00:01:15] Barry Kudrowitz: creativity. Sure. Yeah. So, um, I’m here in Minneapolis. I founded the product design program and the college of design at the university of Minnesota. And now I’m the department head of the department that includes graphic design, [00:01:30] product design, apparel design, retail merchandising, user experience design, and, um, human factors.

[00:01:35] Um, where, how did I get here? Um, I, I’m actually trained as a mechanical engineer. Wow. And I, yeah, I, all my degrees are in mechanical engineering. Um, I went to, uh, I’m from Florida, so I know somebody else here is 

[00:01:53] diane: from Orlando. Yep. 

[00:01:54] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, I, I went to school at UCF in Orlando, and, um, people were, I wanted to [00:02:00] design theme park rides, and they were like, you should be a mechanical engineer.

[00:02:06] And, um, so I went into mechanical engineering and I thought, Well, I guess Orlando is a good place for that. So that’s where I ended up. And it turns out that that wasn’t exactly the type of theme park ride stuff I wanted to be doing. I wanted like the more, mmm, theming and brand, like creative conceptual stuff.

[00:02:28] So, uh, yeah, [00:02:30] so I went, I somehow found industrial design. I ended up at MIT working on toy design, um, and doing Nerf and Super Soaker. Uh, uh, concepts designed for my master’s. That’s 

[00:02:50] diane: cool. Okay. So I, we, I have friends that teach at UCF, but they don’t teach in mechanical engineering. So I know you probably wouldn’t know them, [00:03:00] but UCF, um, um, up and Cummings, right?

[00:03:04] Like they, they are, they have a good design program. I know. Um, but they, they’re not that old of a school, right? 

[00:03:12] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, I think they’re one of the largest universities, it is, yeah, but 

[00:03:19] diane: when did it start like was in the 60s? I mean, it’s not like as old as University of 

[00:03:23] Barry Kudrowitz: Florida or no, I actually don’t. I don’t know the history.

[00:03:28] diane: No worries. [00:03:30] It’s totally fine. Um, Anyway, so I, uh, I think that that is such an interesting, we’ve had a couple other people who have had a engineering background or a physics background or, you know, they’re, they have something else, but then they found their way to design. Um, sometimes that’s a bumpy road.

[00:03:49] Um, was it in between? Like, did you try to work or did you know, even in school, you were like this mechanical engineering is not for me. 

[00:03:59] Barry Kudrowitz: I [00:04:00] think I was, like, good at it, and I appreciated it, but I wanted to be drawing, and, you know, making stuff, and not analyzing systems, and… You know, writing equations to stuff.

[00:04:13] So it was, um, it was sometime around like senior year where I was like, oh, industrial design that that was the degree. But there were at the I don’t think there was an industrial design program in the state of Florida. And so I guess [00:04:30] it sort of made sense that yeah, no one knew. You know, where to direct me.

[00:04:36] diane: Yeah, well, that makes sense. OK, so then when did you get interested? Was it in your master’s program? Was it after about studying play and then humor and how they’re connected to creativity? 

[00:04:49] Barry Kudrowitz: Yeah. So when I was at MIT, I. I took over a, uh, a course that was kind of taught through this thing called this Edgerton, Edgerton Center and [00:05:00] grad students could teach classes.

[00:05:01] And I took over a sports class and I didn’t know anything about sports. So I made it toy design because that’s what I was doing for my master’s working with Hasbro. And this was about. 17 years ago, I started this class called toy product design, and it’s still going now at MIT. They, they’re still have, uh, the, the toy design, uh, course.

[00:05:23] Um, and I taught it for six years there, and then I brought it to the university in Minnesota and I taught it for another 10 years [00:05:30] here at the university of Minnesota. Um, and that’s how I got into designing for play. Cause I was, I basically had to create course content and I was. Writing papers and working with the toy industry, um, but the humor part didn’t come until I, I was an exchange student at TU Delft in the Netherlands.

[00:05:52] And I went there to like between master’s and PhD to, um, to just learn more about industrial [00:06:00] design and I started a research project with surprise, like, um, related to surprise and products and like what types of surprises people like and what, what types of surprises people don’t like. And we were making, uh, I remember like rubber duckies that like did different.

[00:06:20] One was like a, we put it like a whoopee cushion inside. So it’s like a farting rubber ducky. Um, and like, you know, in that process of understanding [00:06:30] surprise, there was a lot of research on humor and, um, and in the reading about those theories of humor. There was, um, a revelation that the, um, incongruity theory of humor is, is the same as the associative theory of creativity.

[00:06:51] They’re both about making non obvious connections between seemingly unrelated things. And that eventually [00:07:00] became my, uh, PhD thesis on, um, humor and creativity. And, and also improv comedy. 

[00:07:07] diane: So then how does that play a role in the create in making super soakers better or, you know, like the practical part, because sometimes it feels like there are, and this is for me being somebody who really likes those games, but I’m not really sure how, and I play them.

[00:07:29] [00:07:30] I think that they’re lots of fun, but I’m not sure if it’s just a release, like a stress release, or is it Um, helping me to make, pick up on patterns quicker when I’m with a client or make different associations so then I can have a weird connection that it’s a, and then my ad campaign series will be more memorable.

[00:07:55] And so people, do you know what I mean? Like how did, I’ve always feel [00:08:00] like if my dad was watching me teach a class and we’re playing these games, he would be like, why are you wasting these kids money? With this, um, game or this thing, and I haven’t ever really been able to, um, put a finger on it, but your book does go into some of those things.

[00:08:21] So can you tell us a little bit about that or how we practically can use these games in our work? 

[00:08:29] Barry Kudrowitz: Go ahead. [00:08:30] Uh, yeah, sure. I mean, so, um, I guess it, it sort of, so you mean by game, like, so in the book I talk about different, um, like actual. Board games, right? But also 

[00:08:42] diane: word games, like there’s association with two words.

[00:08:46] There’s, anyway, there’s lots of, I call them games, 

[00:08:49] Barry Kudrowitz: maybe they’re not. Right. Yeah, no, those are games. And then there’s a lot of creativity tests that resemble games. Actually, Scattergories [00:09:00] as a, as a board game has been used as a creativity test because it has so much in common with standard tests of creativity.

[00:09:10] It almost tests. All of the elements of the torrents test, if you’re playing, uh, scategories, it tests, uh, novelty of ideas, fluency of ideas, quantity of ideas, flexibility of ideas, and elaboration. So. So a lot of things that we think of as, like, [00:09:30] just a game are building creative skills. Um, I’m, you know, and we could go through a bunch of, of different, like, Pictionary or, or Scrabble, right?

[00:09:43] And I, I’m going to step back just a little bit, but. That’s how we learn. Like, that’s not just how humans learn, that’s how animals learn best. We learn through play. Dogs, seagulls, spiders, dolphins, they learn [00:10:00] skills for that they need for adulthood. Physical skills, emotional skills, cognitive skills, through playing.

[00:10:09] And and the weird thing here is that As we get humans, as we get older, we say, no, no, no. When you go to school, you’re going to learn this way. You’re going to, we’re not going to play games where you’re going to copy notes and you’re going to listen to me lecture and you’re going to take tests. Right. [00:10:30] But.

[00:10:30] That’s the weird thing. That’s, that’s not how we learn best. We learn best through play and through games. Um, and I mean, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why that, I mean, like, engagement and flow and, you know, you’re doing things because you want to do it, not because of external rewards. And I talk about all this in the book, but when we go into academia, it’s like, it’s all ex it’s grades, right?

[00:10:57] Don’t mess up, because you’re gonna get a [00:11:00] bad grade. And, um, it sucks the play. It makes things not play anymore. That, that’s how you make something work, um, which makes it not a great means of learning something. So, I think we, you know, just the, the nature of the book is like we need to go back to embracing play and also humor, because that’s how we learn best.

[00:11:23] Everything. 

[00:11:25] diane: Absolutely. Okay, so one of the things you and I talked about the other day, I always think it’s fun because [00:11:30] sometimes I can make it through a book, but I’m a really slow reader, but I do appreciate. Appreciate the book. The book is really fun. And if you notice the parts that I’ve read, there’s all these highlights.

[00:11:41] I mean, I’m, I’m like, Ooh, this is neat. This, let’s do this. Let’s try this. And I mean, all these things up and I’ve added, I mean, there are spaces for you to write in as well. Some of the things are there space and you’re supposed to fill it out and do that. And I do write in my book. So, but you have, there’s [00:12:00] imagination.

[00:12:00] You talk about imagination and you and I talked about this the other day. And I’m going to read my question. Imagination and cultivating imagination is important in future inventions and, um, and just progress. And we think about this, like when we were kids, if we said we’ll have these devices, there was a show, I can’t remember what it was called, but he traveled in the future and he had these thinking it was like a jitterbug, really, you know, and had really big, like, um, Glowing buttons and the guy would go and he would [00:12:30] change a little bit of the past and do you know what I don’t remember what TV show it was, but, um, but it was like a device and he would send this man back and forth in 

[00:12:40] Barry Kudrowitz: time.

[00:12:41] Sliders. No, not sliders. Um, uh,

[00:12:46] quantum leap. Yeah. Quantum leap 

[00:12:48] diane: is what I’m thinking, but I never, and granted we can’t go to, we can’t transport yet, but I think this is what really caught me when we talked before you said. If [00:13:00] we don’t imagine, if we don’t dream like that, then we would never, we will never transport because, but we have to have some of that science fiction and some of that imagination because who would think that this.

[00:13:14] Would allow me to talk to my friend Pippa this morning in London, or that I could see you on my phone if I wanted to. And I just think it, it really brought to home how important it is for us [00:13:30] to, uh, I think kids do this really well. They are like, their imagination, they don’t have limits. But then, This is one of the things that they do kind of drive out of us in school, and then some of us just don’t do well, so then we go into art or creative field, but what, how important is that in making some of these huge progress leaps in The, just someone imagining in, in [00:14:00] Quantum Leap, do you remember that thing that that guy would hold?

[00:14:03] Yeah. I mean, it was kind of jitter buggy, like, you know, they had big 

[00:14:07] Barry Kudrowitz: buttons. He was a hologram. I mean, I think that’s even hologram’s, even something that it, back in the time, they’re like, how do you do that? And now there are some pretty realistic hologram machines that you, that are very real, that are on, that are probably even better than the portrayal.

[00:14:24] of a hologram in Quantum Leap, right? Um, and I, I think that’s the, the [00:14:30] interesting thing here is it’s all in perspe it’s just like how we don’t realize we’re aging and then we’re like, oh my gosh, I’m old. It’s the same way with technology. You don’t realize how advanced things have gotten, um, until you put it in perspective.

[00:14:42] Mm hmm. And as you were holding up your phone, you know, like, yes, this all seems normal right now, but even if I showed this to somebody 20 years ago, right? This would blow their mind, right? And, or, or if we go back even further, I like to go back, you know, the, the [00:15:00] light bulb is like 120 years old. It’s not, or the, the, the current incandescent version of them, right?

[00:15:08] It’s not that long ago when we didn’t have electricity in our house. That was not a thing. Even in my house, like even my house right now, the light bulbs that are on the walls behind them is a gas pipe because they used to be, there was a flame that came out of the wall. That’s how, that’s how old I’m.

[00:15:29] And then that’s. [00:15:30] in my current house, right? So 120 years ago, we didn’t have like, you know, a light switch that turned on a light. That was a, that was a wild, wacky idea. Um, and, and, and if I went back 120 years and I showed them this, this would look like, like magic. It would look like wizardry or like I was an extraterrestrial, like I would look like.

[00:15:59] An [00:16:00] alien showing them this thing like I was tricking them or like a god, right? And we wouldn’t be able to comprehend that, but that’s going to be the exact same thing. If I took something from 50 years from now and I showed it to us today, you would say, how are you doing that? That must be like movie tricks or something, right?

[00:16:23] But it’s not. It’s just, we, we, we gra we gradually improve our [00:16:30] technology and to the, and it goes incrementally that we don’t. realize that it’s even with physical abilities. If you look at the first Olympics and the current Olympics, the current Olympians look like superheroes compared to the original.

[00:16:46] They’re like jumping like twice as high and like doing crazy backflips and you know, um, like the ski jump, right? If you compare them, it just looks, how are they doing that? Right. And that’s, you know, that’s the [00:17:00] same way to just go back to your first statement. I think Disney You know, I’m again, I’m a Disney person, but they say if, like, you know, if you can dream it, you can do it.

[00:17:12] We have to, we have to think in the future. We have to think when designers are really good at that thinking 50 years from now, when this technology is commonplace, what are the possibilities? So if 

[00:17:27] diane: we are trying to do [00:17:30] this, if we have kind of gotten this out of us, or if we’re just so. in a job that isn’t pushing us.

[00:17:38] I feel like this is like just a skill like riding your bike. If you’re not riding your bike very much, you’re not going to be able to be like, you know what, this summer, I think I’m going to do the Tour de France. You know, like you’re not going to do that. You’re probably not even going to go on a regular bike race.

[00:17:54] So. How can we stay sharp? Because this is something that I think we get [00:18:00] sharp in areas, but then we’re dull on other arts. And I think we don’t want to be, but we don’t notice. And this is where I think some of the humor, um, can come in because it is such a, you, you talk in the book about divergent thinking and convergent thinking, which I think is really helpful because some people with my students, some people are much more, um, Uh, image thinkers, and some are more word thinkers, and there’s all kinds of things, um, that [00:18:30] improv, I think you learned the power of improv, um, and I’ve been watching stuff just to kind of get prepared for this, I, when I’ve had five minutes, I’ll just watch some of Whose Line Is It Anyway, because that’s a great show for, they have props, but they also do, um, uh, words.

[00:18:52] So if somebody isn’t a crazy concept or they’re not really utilizing their imagination, they’re doing some things, they’re being creative, but [00:19:00] maybe they’re not. I think your imagination and thinking more future wise, what are some things that we could do to sharpen those skills? 

[00:19:09] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, at a high level, um, you, you can learn to be more creative, um, and so I do studies in my own creativity course.

[00:19:21] So one thing you can do is take a class, right? Um, and the, the creativity course I teach is essentially design thinking or [00:19:30] design process. And we do before and after studies with. standardized creativity tests, but also like real world design challenges. And everyone increases their creative abilities, um, after taking a class like that.

[00:19:50] Um, and this is, um, the, the, the group that improves the most are the ones that are least creative. On the onset, right? So one thing you do [00:20:00] is, is take courses, right? The area that, you know, my PhD went in was improv training, um, because improv has such a strong overlap. With team based idea generation. It’s almost the same thing.

[00:20:14] Um, if you look at, um, what skills are, are, um, that they’re teaching you in improv workshops, it’s listening to, uh, deferring judgment, building on ideas. It’s coming up with lots of [00:20:30] ideas, um, encouraging wild ideas. And it’s all like, that’s, that’s just almost the rules of, um, of team based idea generation.

[00:20:41] And so it makes sense that they’re like improv comedians are really good at, at, uh, creative thinking. But we wanted to test that. So we did improv warm ups or workshops before idea generation, and people came up with significantly more ideas than if they did something else, like an activity by themselves, [00:21:00] or nothing, right, before, before idea generation.

[00:21:04] So, you know, improv is definitely one, um, way to improve your creative abilities. Um, In the book, I talk about a lot of other avenues like inspiration, um, uh, I have a chapter on drugs. I’m not advocating for it, but there’s a lot of research on that, um, incubation, um, [00:21:30] uh, doing new things. One of the, well, sorry, two of the, the high, um, Correlation, correlates, uh, personality, uh, correlates with creativity is, um, openness to new things.

[00:21:48] An

[00:21:52] extroversion and the, you know, where, why that’s related to creativity is people who are open to new things [00:22:00] are making interesting connections. They’re building a database of stuff that they’ll, they might connect in the future. Same with extroverts. It’s not like extroverts are more creative all the time.

[00:22:12] It’s that. They’re talking to the person in the elevator, they’re going out to the party and they’re building that database of information. Introverts, you can do that too, like on TikTok or scrolling newsfeeds or reading magazines. It’s really just about [00:22:30] building that database of data, of points that you can then connect in the future.

[00:22:36] Yeah, so my 

[00:22:36] diane: friend, uh, Chris Martin, he has a podcast called, uh, Getting Work to Work, and he’s really all about what people are curious about. And, um, this is where I think being curious allows you to, the more you know about a wide array of things, as a designer, we can bring those things in and make some interesting connections.

[00:22:59] [00:23:00] History, maybe you really are interested in history. I always think that there’s ways to do that. Um, When you said, um, I think in the book you talk about eating like people who are like you, you might be, um, adventurous in eating, right? 

[00:23:16] Barry Kudrowitz: Yeah. Uh, like not neophobic. So I don’t know what, Oh, afraid of new foods.

[00:23:24] diane: Okay. So, so I am a very picky eater. So I was like, well, that’s not me, but I think I’m, I do try [00:23:30] a lot of things. Um, But I think food’s just a, uh, was a trigger for me. But one thing I thought was interesting was is, uh, improv also, and a comedian has to know their audience. They can’t tell the same jokes at a, uh, retirement community that they would tell at a college.

[00:23:52] Auditorium, uh, with college students. So I think it’s also them knowing their audience. And as designers, we really do have to [00:24:00] understand who’s using the product or the toy or the, um, uh, app or the device or whatever. And I think that that’s something that is also really important in improv. You have those, the words they use to the audience so that they would be able to relate.

[00:24:17] And I thought, I think that that. Um, was interesting to me, um, in another way, unless you have something you want to add on. Okay, so, um, you also talked about [00:24:30] cartoons and how cartoons, which I thought was really also, um, interesting was cartoons are, can be predictors of the future. So we’re kind of going back to that imagination where anything can 

[00:24:44] Barry Kudrowitz: happen.

[00:24:46] Yeah, I mean, that’s it. Right. It’s a 

[00:24:48] diane: cartoon. But it also has to relate enough to us as, um, into our lives. And the Simpsons, I think, are one that you mention in the book. I know that there are lots of others. But, [00:25:00] um, there has to be something we relate to, but then there has to be something that is It’s normal for them in their life that it happens and it’s painting the picture so that it, we still can connect, but it gets us used to that device or that ability or something like that.

[00:25:20] Can, is there anything else like you realize in your research or when you were writing about just the power of [00:25:30] cartoons to predict the future? 

[00:25:32] Barry Kudrowitz: The fun thing about animation is that you can do anything you want, like the character can turn into something else, right? I took a class many years ago back in grad school on comics, um, and, um, the, the instructor at the time was, um, talking about how cartoons today, they, they stopped doing that, you know, back a long time ago, [00:26:00] like, Mickey Mouse, like, turned into a puddle.

[00:26:03] Right? And then it, like, reformed, right? And his nose popped off. And, or even, like, the coyote, like, exploded. And then the, at the time, the cartoons of today were very real world. It was like, you know, Jetsons, uh, Flintstone kind of thing, where they followed real world convention. Like, Family Guy, even. And it wasn’t, like, they were, they were kind of [00:26:30] confined to the.

[00:26:36] Um, and so I thought that was an interesting observation and I think cartoons are starting to change a little bit like Adventure Time is and others are going back to the old days where. You embraced that it was animated. Um, but the, the, here’s, here’s where it connects to innovation and design when you’re, when you’re designing, when you’re [00:27:00] animating, it’s, it’s the same as being like a future thinker.

[00:27:03] You can do anything you want. Right. And I think the Simpsons writers, it’s not necessarily that they’re futurists, but they’re really, really smart. Um, humorous. That are playing in this sandbox where you can make commentary on the status quo you can make you have episodes where That interface [00:27:30] with what’s going on in the real world like like the like family guy and and South Park do and so sometimes their their Predictions are inspired by the real world and they’re making these educated guesses that that sometimes end up Turning out to be real, right?

[00:27:48] Like, like Trump being president, or the, the shard skyscraper in London in the exact location that it is right now on the skyline. Um, and there’s a [00:28:00] whole lot There’s a whole series of Simpsons predictions that are now, um, that are now real. And um, I, I, I think, I think what it, what’s happening here is like, it’s this interesting interplay between, um, art, artists, designers, and scientists, and they’re, they’re sort of, you know, I don’t know whether the cartoon inspired reality or reality was inspired by the cartoon, [00:28:30] but it happens.

[00:28:32] Um, it happens often, like Willy Wonka, you know, has all of these candy inventions. And they’re all now real, right there. Well, most of them are real. There’s bubble gum that changes flavor. There’s, um, Balloon, uh, toffee that you blow up into a balloon. There’s ice cream. That’s that stays solid when it’s hot.

[00:28:57] Um, you know, those are almost [00:29:00] all of the Willy Wonka inventions are are real now, whether You know, chefs, pastry chefs, food scientists were inspired by Willy Wonka and actually made them, or was Roald Dahl a futurist, or was he just playing in the, he was playing in that adjacent possible, like, okay, wouldn’t it be cool if, you know, you could lick the wallpaper, right?

[00:29:26] You know, that’s, that’s like. He’s like, okay, that’s [00:29:30] that’s black mirror kind of stuff, right? It’s sort of possible. Not quite, but maybe in 10 years Yeah, sure. Why not? We can totally do that. 

[00:29:41] diane: So do you find it hard for yourself? Or when do you find it hard to dream bigger or is there a time? Are you pretty open to that always?

[00:29:56] Barry Kudrowitz: meaning 

[00:29:57] diane: in a [00:30:00] So in school, when you’re teaching this, sometimes there, if we’re always solving problems. So whether it’s a marketing problem or it’s a website, a user experience problem, um, we can come at it from different ways. So I think of when I was reading this, I’m thinking about, wow, would this really help with creative block?

[00:30:21] You know, sometimes we have a hard time dreaming bigger because I think that, um, my [00:30:30] students or my friends or me, I’m in the same rut. I have a hard time thinking outside because I’ve, I’ve done this so many times. So when somebody asks me, well, can you think differently about this? It’s difficult. At times, especially things that I’ve done often, um, so I’m trying to get, um, ways that maybe you personally or things that you’ve seen, because when you tell something, [00:31:00] when you tell us, when we’re listening, we’re like, Oh yeah, that could be me.

[00:31:03] Maybe I need to try this other thing to be, get out of this rut. I didn’t even know I was in a 

[00:31:08] Barry Kudrowitz: rut, right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I, I. I’m in that way too, right? We always have to be questioning why we’re doing things the way we’re doing things, and it’s actually, going back to humor, this is, this is like, um, observational comedy.

[00:31:27] This is Seinfeld. Or, or Larry David. This [00:31:30] is exactly what they do. Um, and it’s also what good designers do. They question everyday things. Why, why do we have this, you know, toothbrush that, this thing that we stick in our mouth? Why is there sodium lauryl sulfate? Why is there like detergent in our toothpaste?

[00:31:51] Why do we do this with, you know, this? And then we like don’t sterilize, we just leave, why is that okay to leave on our counter all day? Yeah. And [00:32:00] then then we just put it back in our mouth where if we did that with something like if I like Anything else I put in my mouth like even a candy I would never stick it on the counter and then put it back in my mouth You know at the end of the the day and be like, oh that was fine, you know there’s Toilets, right?

[00:32:20] Like, or wash, dryers. 

[00:32:22] diane: We talked about 

[00:32:23] Barry Kudrowitz: dryers, everything. Like I, I have the, I have a whole chapter on toilets and questioning why we’re doing that [00:32:30] and toilet paper. But you know, most of your clothing dryers, it is like it’s if it’s gas still, it’s, it’s a metal bucket with a fire underneath and it’s just spinning under a fire.

[00:32:43] It’s like, It’s cave person technology. I mean, it’s pretty fun. You know, it’s like pretty on the outside, but why are we doing that? Right? And there’s some humor to all of this, right? Why? Like, even, like, [00:33:00] everything, everything here, why do I have six cables coming out of my laptop right now? Um, right? My shirt, I have like eight buttons going down the thing that I have to do this to, to get my shirt on.

[00:33:13] We have better technology out there, but we’re still doing this for some reason. For tradition, for habits, um, right? Who knows? Um, and we have to question the status quo. All the time. That’s what good designers [00:33:30] do that. They say, is there another way? Is there a better way? Why do we, why are we doing it this way?

[00:33:36] diane: Do you find that if you are doing something, you’re, you solve, um, or you attack a problem in the same way you get similar results. So are there, there are lots of things in here that made me think, Oh, I should try this. Or some of it was just. thinking about it differently. I [00:34:00] had never thought about the dryer.

[00:34:03] I do think this is a really big, you know, and it gets the house hot and, but I don’t know how to fix that. But I think, I don’t even, I didn’t even really think until you told, you mentioned it, that I was like, yeah, but this is a lot of space we’re wasting, you know, that we could solve this, but we’re doing it because it’s comfortable.

[00:34:24] And it’s like the Dyson guy who, you know, changed how vacuums work, right? [00:34:30] He just got sick of it. Um, I guess for me as not an engineer, I think about things that I would like differently, but I don’t know that there’s even an option. Um, maybe it’s a little different and you and I talked about maybe product design, how that’s different, but I also think like.

[00:34:50] Advertising is changing because we don’t advertise in the same way. So how do we advertise now? You know, and, um, if you had [00:35:00] told me 20 years ago or when I, you know, 50 years ago that you had said, you know, there will be ad campaigns that are running for 15 or 20 years. Like the Chick fil a eat more chicken, or yeah, eat more chicken.

[00:35:17] I was about to say eat more cows. No, the cows do not want to be eaten. But it’s like that’s one, uh, flow with progressive, um, the mayhem guy has been About seven to 10 years. This [00:35:30] just wasn’t normal. You know, this wasn’t a, I mean, insurance really stepped it up, you know, in the last couple of decades. Um, but I guess I just think that’s the kind of thinking that we need to be using this.

[00:35:45] Um, this as a tool, um, and teaching us, but I loved the part about humor. There was something in, in the book that was, and I’m off my, um, thing. So maybe I should get back to this. Um, so let me, let me ask you this. I, I just really [00:36:00] enjoyed the humor and, uh, cause there’s some healing. I think that comes along with humor.

[00:36:04] You talked about, um, you know, I think. And again, I’ve been watching things and, um, can’t remember if I read it or if I heard it somewhere else, but the power of humor to be able to help you step out of, um, just, uh, you’re more comfortable if you’re going to do something that’s uncomfortable, you should [00:36:30] laugh for a while before that’s going to help you because it’s, um, changing your body chemistry or something.

[00:36:37] Right? So in, yeah. Like maybe if we’re going in and we always are kind of solving this or attacking a problem the same way is something we could do is just. Do something to make us laugh more or to get that part of our brain flowing, I guess. [00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Barry Kudrowitz: Yeah, I, I mean, I think, so, I’ve, I’ve, I talk a lot about how humor and creativity are helpful for, like, making connections and coming up with ideas, but I think what you’re pointing out is that Just being like humorous or being in a state of levity or laughing, right, is also good for creativity on its own.

[00:37:26] Um, and there’s some interesting studies on that where they [00:37:30] had people watch comedy movies. Before idea generation and it it puts you in the the right mindset. Um, I mean, there’s there’s definitely like some, um, like neurotransmitters going on here, right? When you’re laughing. There’s dopamine involved.

[00:37:50] Dopamine improves your ability to make connections or be open to new connections. And so being in a positive affect, a state [00:38:00] of positive affect, is good for creativity. And that’s also going back to play. When you’re playing, you’re in a, you know, a positive affect, like a happy state of mind, and that allows you to be open to new things.

[00:38:15] Or try, try new things, explore new things, open to new ideas. Um, and, and laughter is social lubricant. 

[00:38:24] diane: Yeah, that was, that was, I loved that. Yes, that was, um, that was one of the things, because you were saying [00:38:30] in there, I, I had never heard of that. I’m sure I, maybe you made it up, but I thought that was brilliant.

[00:38:37] I was like, it is social lubricant. It does, it’s like, you know, anyway, tell them about that. 

[00:38:44] Barry Kudrowitz: Yeah. Well, most things we laugh at are not funny. It’s like something like, I don’t know, the study was like 90 percent of the things that we laugh at right now, right? I kind of like giggled a little bit, right?

[00:38:58] That’s not fun. [00:39:00] What I said was not funny. If you transcribe it and you ask people how funny these statements are, they will say, I don’t, there’s no humor in these statements, right? What we, what we laugh at is, is. It’s, it’s me connecting with you and it’s saying, hey, I’m being friendly here, or hey, I’m being, I’m nervous right now, or, um, uh, what I’m about to say is, is [00:39:30] interesting.

[00:39:30] Pay attention. Um, and. We, now I’m like analyzing, you know, it’s, I’m being meta on myself, right? But the laughter is not a result of an incongruity or a non obvious connection or a joke. Um, it’s there to connect people socially. 

[00:39:53] diane: So, I think that it’s funny because, you know, when you’re a kid and you’re not supposed to be [00:40:00] laughing, and maybe this happened, it’s happened as an adult to me yesterday, and you’re trying to like hold your face in a non laughing, but the sound keeps happening and you’re like, somebody says something, this sounds like cards being, dealing.

[00:40:17] And it doesn’t matter. The other person could be crying and I am like, Oh my gosh, I’m having a hard time. Every time that sound happens, it’s this trigger because I’m not supposed to be laughing. And then it’s even worse when I am laughing and [00:40:30] then other people are like, it’s like minus the person who couldn’t hear the thing that was happening, right?

[00:40:36] It’s, it is that awkward and it’s that we’re trying not to be. And I think when, I think that that’s where I connected to the weird words or the triads that you have that are going on. Um, I enjoy those awkward things. I think that those are memorable. And for me, I was taught that the best [00:41:00] design is the one that is the memorable one, you know.

[00:41:04] But that is where you see community coming together. That’s that team building. When, You’re all in the knowledge. So that’s also understanding your users or understanding the people. Um, and I think that it really is important to do this with others. I’m an extrovert, so I want to do it with others. So introverts may struggle with this.

[00:41:27] There is huge value to just [00:41:30] being seen. And I think, uh, and like you were saying in improv, listening is really key. And for. All of us who are designers, we have to listen to our client. We have to listen to what they want and getting on the same team. So a lot of the stuff in the book could be great for team building, could be great for just me sharpening my creativity skills.

[00:41:50] And I think it’s important to do, even if I don’t think that there’s a. A plus B equals C relationship. Maybe you think, well, I don’t do a lot of stuff with [00:42:00] imagination or dreaming. I am, you know, I’m designing. What am I designing? That’s boring. Maybe a liar. I don’t know. Yeah. I always say Dennis website.

[00:42:12] So I was trying to give the dentist a break, but, but, um, but there are things that we’re just, um, Accepting, right? Um, as a product designer for things that you’ve been able to do and Jesse, who’s here, she’s a product designer. So it’s like there are, you can actually make [00:42:30] a difference, but sometimes people need to have the extra step.

[00:42:34] Um, let me go back to my questions. How I guess, um, maybe we’ve already kind of answered this, but I, I would love to know what you think, how we can best cultivate these bigger dreams. So this is something I struggle with, Barry. I have a hard time dreaming big because I know what my. limits are. So it’s really, I have to really get into a different [00:43:00] place.

[00:43:00] And it’s a, it’s, it is hard. I can dream for other people, but I have a real hard time, um, breaking out of thinking about, um, reality. So when I went to grad school, I was a practical designer before, and I was a practical designer after. But during grad school, they’re like, do whatever you want. And I’m like, Ooh, I need.

[00:43:21] How is this going to be in CMYK? Do I have op, you know, like I kind of like the parameters because they help me when you have everything. [00:43:30] I get lost in all the abilities or the possibilities. So for me, dreaming big, I would love for you to help me cultivate how I could be able to dream bigger or be more.

[00:43:47] Maybe it’s a just a self driven project where I’m. seeing things, all the different things in my house that I think could be designed better. I can’t design them because I’m not an engineer. [00:44:00] Is there anything that could help me? 

[00:44:03] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, well, I think I talk a little bit about this in the book, but People don’t like radical innovation.

[00:44:11] They like incremental innovation. Um, I mean, the world needs radical change, but what people really want is incremental change. They want things that are familiar. But just a little better or a little different so it already fits into their schema or, [00:44:30] you know, they can understand they can, you know, it’s it’s like the iPhone, but it’s better in this way, right?

[00:44:37] Or it’s like a microphone, but it also does this. That’s the kind of stuff that people. Want or like or accept easily. That’s called my most advanced yet acceptable. Okay. Um, and when you, when you go past it to things that are too advanced or too radical, [00:45:00] people don’t adopt it. Um, because it’s threatening or it’s new or involves too much new stuff to learn, or it involves throwing out the current way of doing things.

[00:45:12] And so, um, you know, I think, yeah, dream big is good, uh, but there’s a lot of space for dreaming medium. Um, and that’s where we, I, you know, that’s also in my classes. That’s where I focus on the students, uh, in, in [00:45:30] the medium dreaming, um, not, not little, but also not, um, we can’t test it yet. There’s a space for that too.

[00:45:38] You know, we have courses on, on the dreaming big, but there’s, uh, there’s a lot of value to shooting, shooting here because you’re going to be successful and you’re still progressing society. Mhm. Forward, um, through that adjacent possible, it, it, yeah, um, the [00:46:00] other thing that you said that’s really interesting is constraints, and um, we like constraints, and that helps with creativity, but you can’t have too few, and you can’t have too many.

[00:46:13] There’s a sweet spot for constraints for you to be creative. And in, in some of my research, it’s two, two constraints. And that’s where you get, um, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s specific enough for you to come up with good [00:46:30] ideas, uh, but it’s not limiting enough for you to filter out stuff. And if you think about it, going back to board games, that’s scattergore, uh, that’s, uh, scattergories, right?

[00:46:40] It’s two constraints. It starts with this letter. And it fits into this category. Go. Right? If you had one constraint, not a fun game. And if you had more than two constraints, you can’t do twelve of them in one minute or two minutes. Right. So, [00:47:00] it’s, uh, there’s some, something magic with, you know, having a, a double constraint to a problem.

[00:47:07] So, 

[00:47:07] diane: one of the things that I had asked, and, um, cause a lot of the people here are illustrators, they’re designers, animators, um, web designers. I’m trying to think about every book designers, people here, here. Um, I think Jesse’s our only product designer, um, besides you, I guess. Um, if you’re trying to tell somebody who is a professional creative, [00:47:30] even a writer, I think a lot of the things in the book work for anybody in a creative field.

[00:47:37] Um, how is your book best used in regular practice? What would you tell them?

[00:47:47] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, okay. So, so I’ve read a lot of books on creativity and, um, they tend to fall into two [00:48:00] camps, I guess. There’s famous person, not academic, writes a book on creativity and it’s how they think of ideas and what they think is important for you to be creative. Their process. Their particular process. Because that’s how I do it, right?

[00:48:17] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And maybe it’s, you know, it’s written very conversationally, perhaps, right? Mm hmm. Um, and then there on the total opposite end, there are [00:48:30] scholars in academia who write very, very detailed books and papers on creativity. And maybe it doesn’t have pictures, and maybe it’s not written to a layman’s audience, and maybe it’s very analytical, describing studies of people, right?

[00:48:52] And there’s not, there’s, there’s sort of this gap between the two. And that’s where [00:49:00] my book comes in, where it is written in a conversational manner. There’s like 150… Illustrations that I made. Um, it’s very, it’s full of very, um, relatable examples and current examples like Rick and Morty and the Simpsons and Seinfeld and Scattergories and Adventure Time, right?

[00:49:24] Um, but if you look at the end of every chapter, There’s [00:49:30] a long list of citations, in fact, if you only look at those parts, it looks like this is a very scary book, um, but it is highly cited, and I say, you know, this is, okay, if you’re trying, if you want to do this idea generation method, this is when you use it and why, and here’s the studies that support why you do that.

[00:49:53] Or why you do this before, idea generation. And here’s my own published academic study that [00:50:00] supports why quantity is so important or whatever. Um, and so I was, I’m hoping to not, not that either of those other two types of readings are not valuable. They’re very valuable and important, but I was trying to be in this intermediate where it’s, Like things that someone can actually do to be more creative and it’s backed by, um, the, the, the rigor and the, the experimental studies and, [00:50:30] and, and supported with the paper references.

[00:50:32] diane: Which I liked. Um, I like the psychology studies or the studies that happen. I, I like reading those and seeing how, and maybe that’s just the designer in me that is always thinking about the audience and how this would work and how can this be improved. Um, But I did really enjoy, I, I did write in my book and one of, in the very beginning you give us a, um, it’s like how many things can you use, uh, [00:51:00] an item for?

[00:51:00] I won’t share what the item is, but it’s like you have this one item, how many different uses? And even if it was like, If it was this, right, this highlighter, I would have said, Oh, this is a hat, you know, a hat for somebody. It could also be, I don’t know, I was thinking about, um, scale changes, like this could be like a really big, this is like a parking deck for a, uh, ant or something, you know, like I’m thinking of all the other things, not [00:51:30] just, well, you can draw.

[00:51:31] Lines, or you can highlight in a book and things like that. And I think that seeing things like that is important. And even that small exercise was just a good one. But there was a, a graph and I’m going to show this graph. I, um, I think anyway, so here’s the graph. I think everybody can see if I’m still talking, it’ll be seen.

[00:51:56] Um, but this was what was so interesting. The stuff [00:52:00] that was in the circle. Can you explain? Do you remember what this is? 

[00:52:04] Barry Kudrowitz: Yeah. Um, so each one of those dots is a person or a subject in a study and they’re plotted on, uh, how many ideas they came up with and the, the creativity of those ideas. Um, and so we were, it was, um, I think that was like coming up with people coming up with ideas for toasters and umbrellas and toothbrushes.

[00:52:27] And um, And the [00:52:30] first purpose of that graph is to show that the more ideas you come up with, The more creative ideas you’re going to have, there’s a high correlation between quantity of ideas and creativity of ideas, but the circle on there is represented that those are the people who are coming up with lots and lots of creative ideas and those people weren’t Engineers, they weren’t designers, they weren’t students, [00:53:00] those dots were professional improv comedians.

[00:53:03] That we’re coming up with more creative product ideas than product designers. 

[00:53:09] diane: And these were quick. These were like how many in a certain amount of time. It wasn’t like you have two weeks, see how many ideas. These are quick thinking ideas which, um, although we do have some time, sometimes when we’re designing something, it…

[00:53:24] Um, is best to get a lot of ideas out, the good and the bad, and it’s also maybe the self, um, [00:53:30] we, um, self edit often. I think that, especially in a team, we can self edit, and it’s best in that, that’s just one of the rules in improv, that you’re not judging, any answer is okay. Um, that, that to me was. Pretty interesting.

[00:53:49] And I think, um, so I’m going to read this one because we have three minutes left. You studied the connection of improv and creativity. Um, what was the top three things that [00:54:00] you gleaned that you regularly returned to in your personal creative practice that you maybe weren’t employing, but now you are? 

[00:54:10] Barry Kudrowitz: Um, well, I think you, you started going there, but yes.

[00:54:14] And so that’s the, this. Maybe the, the, the main rule, one of the big rules of improv comedy is yes and, um, and so it’s, it’s agree with what you just heard and then build on it. [00:54:30] And I mean, in a, in a theater setting that makes sense, right? You’re on stage. Somebody is like, it’s a beautiful day at the beach and they’re like, we’re not at the beach.

[00:54:39] Uh, like, like that’s.

[00:54:44] Yeah. And like the, your, your partner is like, um, okay, where do we go from here? Uh, but I mean that, that maps to the, the two main, two of the main rules of brainstorming, which are defer judgment and then build on [00:55:00] ideas. It makes you a good. Team player. Um, and I think in we tend to always go to the critical stuff.

[00:55:07] Why won’t that work? Um, what’s what? What could be the issues moving forward? Um, and if some of you like the thinking hats, right? That that’s a specific hat like you that you wear, but you should probably go first to the yes. And so the build it like, okay. Okay. What if yes, you know, and then what and build on it and [00:55:30] it makes that person feel better because They like their idea.

[00:55:33] You know, somebody likes my idea. I’m gonna go with it. Um, uh, quantity of ideas and creativity of ideas. The more ideas you have, the more creative ideas you have. The first ideas you think of are the same ideas everyone thinks of. And it’s not until you get to like 8, 9, 10th idea is where you start to get to the novel ones that very few people think of.

[00:55:59] So, [00:56:00] push it, push yourself past the first stuff that comes to mind. Um, and, um, so, let’s see, what else, uh, I mean, listening. Is really important to designers, and it’s also critical to improv, um, and I am, I am so bad at that, but I’m getting better. What are you 

[00:56:23] diane: doing to get better? So what is something that you’re doing to get better at listening?

[00:56:28] Barry Kudrowitz: So, [00:56:30] um, so I think, I think we often have the thing that we want to say, or the idea that we want to share. You have to know that there will be a time, you can always share that later, but when somebody else is talking, let’s, let’s Let’s go down that path first. You have to put a like a push pin and say okay We’re gonna I’m gonna make sure I’ll introduce that thing later But if I [00:57:00] engage with you and I listen to what you’re saying, then you’re gonna say Oh this person likes what I’m saying and then when I introduce something later hopefully they’re paying attention to the thing that I said and I It is something that I am working on, um, and, uh, but, but improv is something that really, that really helps with that.

[00:57:22] It makes you in the moment, and it makes for better improv scenes, because you’re actually reacting in real [00:57:30] time. Um, and not thinking about the next thing that you’re going to say while somebody else is talking. 

[00:57:37] diane: Because in improv, things can change and they’re, the scene changes, so you have to be really present in that moment, 

[00:57:44] Barry Kudrowitz: right?

[00:57:45] That makes for good, for, for interviewing, like, like it makes for, if you’re doing design research and you’re talking to somebody, you might have your questions that you want to You know, go through and you want to hit on those questions, [00:58:00] but what’s really important is engaging that person. And oftentimes, even like writing notes, you’re disengaging with that person because now I’m not, I’m not fully listening.

[00:58:10] I’m writing notes. Um, and I’m looking down and. So that, that interaction is, is really important in user research, um, but, but also in, in team based idea generation. 

[00:58:25] diane: Yeah. All right. So how do you use, well, we’re out of time. So [00:58:30] tell me what’s next for you. So I was going to ask you how you use this in your teaching, but you kind of have talked about it.

[00:58:35] So what’s next for you? And then I’m going to share the link, uh, your links and I’ll, I’ll read them out in a second. But what is next for you? Like what’s the next thing you’re going to study or what are you already 

[00:58:45] Barry Kudrowitz: studying? It So my original intent was to write a book on food design. Um, and it ended up becoming a book on play and humor.

[00:58:55] Uh, so I might go there. Um, I, I taught a class on [00:59:00] food design with chefs. And, um, it is something that’s really interesting to me. And that might be my next, um, my next book proposal. That’s cool. 

[00:59:11] diane: Do you love food? 

[00:59:14] Barry Kudrowitz: Well, I was, I 

[00:59:16] diane: see, I see, 

[00:59:18] Barry Kudrowitz: I have fine art of food behind me. Um, I was gonna, I was basically for grad school.

[00:59:23] This is short, but it was like, do I go to MIT? Do I go to the Culinary Institute of America or [00:59:30] do I go to Pratt for industrial design? And it was all three very different life choices. Uh, you know, decisions. Uh, so why, 

[00:59:42] diane: why did you choose? Why did culinary and industrial design go? What? And if you don’t want to answer that, you can just say, uh, 

[00:59:52] Barry Kudrowitz: well, but parents were like, what are you crazy?

[00:59:57] Um, no, my, uh. [01:00:00] My advisor was great, who I met at MIT, and he was starting this project with Hasbro, and I was like, oh, that That sounds wonderful. Uh, that’s close. That’s, that’s close enough to theme parks. Um, 

[01:00:13] diane: well, that is a, that’s a really amazing opportunity that the others probably didn’t have. So that’s, that is one that you can’t really turn down.

[01:00:23] And it looks like you’ve done a lot of great things since. 

[01:00:26] Barry Kudrowitz: And, and you know, that saying about like, you know, if you want [01:00:30] Keep it playful, you know, don’t make it your, you know, so I still love cooking, right? And I want to make sure that I, I always love cooking. I 

[01:00:40] diane: think that that’s a really neat for, um, I just would love to see how you attack food design because it may be differently, different than if you were a trained chef.

[01:00:54] Um, because you may use, there may be some new flavors that can come out [01:01:00] because you’re not just doing heating your clothes with a fire in a metal drum. Yeah. Anyway, so I’m, you can follow, uh, Barry, um, you can, his web site, his web address, I don’t know why I was going to say it like that, is wonderbarry.

[01:01:20] com. B A R R Y, Wonders, just like W O N D E R. It’s in the chat. If you’re watching on YouTube, it’s the link right at the top. Um, and then on [01:01:30] Amazon, there’s an Amazon link for the Sparking Creativity, Humor, Play, How Humor, Play, How Play and Humor Fuel Innovation and Design. That’s the link and then there’s a LinkedIn so you can connect with him on LinkedIn and Barry just thank you so much I really appreciate it.

[01:01:48] And then I have been for the rest of the month I had or until the end of the year until Doc Reid gets enough money We’re doing the saving the tatas again [01:02:00] for Julie Reid’s cancer I’m just gonna save that if you guys would even just a give up one coffee so that they can have some non She’s already had it once they did it the way everybody said.

[01:02:13] Now they’re trying a different way to beat it this time. So if you want to give to that, um, it is there and you can, there’s a link. It’s gofundme. com slash F the letter F slash save the tatas again, but also the link is going to be right under berries and then. The rest [01:02:30] of my links will be there as well.

[01:02:31] But Barry, thank you so much. I really enjoyed reading the book. I can’t wait to continue using it and marking it up and continue to highlighting it. And just thanks for being here and thanks for sharing it with 

[01:02:42] Barry Kudrowitz: us. Oh, thanks for having me on this show. It was great. Well, 

[01:02:47] diane: guys, I will see you next week. We have Matt Wood.

[01:02:50] He’s going to be talking about, um, branding and tattoos. Uh, it’s different than you might think. And he’s an amazing illustrator, so I can’t wait to have [01:03:00] him on the show. And I will see you guys next week. And Barry, thanks again. 

[01:03:05] Barry Kudrowitz: Bye. Bye.

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